Redder.. or more red?

[wace]

I was reading an article the other day and came across two forms of comparative with the word 'red'.
How to make apples redder
and How to make your lips more red

Funny, I thought. Doesn't the rule of one-syllable adjective apply to colours? I would have used 'redder' in the second sentence, too.

Thanks

 

[PROESL]

I was reading an article the other day and came across two forms of comparative with the word 'red'.
How to make apples redder
and How to make your lips more red

Funny, I thought. Doesn't the rule of one-syllable adjective apply to colours? I would have used 'redder' in the second sentence, too.

Thanks

Yes, it's correct to say or write "redder", and the rule applies to colors as well. However, this "rule" is based on common usage by native speakers. In other words, first the pattern was observed and then it was decided that this pattern is a "rule". However, we do hear and read, though I wouldn't say too often, that speakers and writers deviate from the common pattern or "rule" when it comes to comparative and superlative forms of adjectives.

Exceptions to the "rule" could seem arbitrary. For example, we say "more fun", and it is incorrect to say "funner". So what's to stop someone from feeling more comfortable saying "more red" than saying "redder"?

There are times when rules are better called "guidelines" than "rules". So while it's correct to say "redder", I would not necessarily say that a native speaker of English who says or writes "more red" has poor language skills or that breaking this "rule" is representative of uneducated language, necessarily.

Some of the more intelligent people in the world often speak on National Public Radio, and I hear that some of these speakers sometimes don't follow all the "rules" as codified in English grammar books and references and as taught, perhaps in a very rigid way, to English language learners.

 

[wace]

PROESL, your explanations are delightfully convincing (though they sometimes shake the 'castle of certitudes' I have patiently built over the years as a diligent rule-abiding teacher...)
Just kidding, thank you so much for your contributions.

 

[orangutan]

Exceptions to the "rule" could seem arbitrary. For example, we say "more fun", and it is incorrect to say "funner". So what's to stop someone from feeling more comfortable saying "more red" than saying "redder"?

Is "fun" really an adjective? I would have thought that at least etymologically it isn't, which would explain why it doesn't have a comparative form like a normal adjective.

 

[bhaisahab]

Is "fun" really an adjective? I would have thought that at least etymologically it isn't, which would explain why it doesn't have a comparative form like a normal adjective.

No, fun isn't an adjective, and the comparative for "red" is "redder". It would be a mistake for any student to go away with the idea that the rules about comparatives are somehow "optional".

 

[PROESL]

Is "fun" really an adjective? I would have thought that at least etymologically it isn't, which would explain why it doesn't have a comparative form like a normal adjective.

We had a fun time at the park.

Yes, "fun" is an adjective. We can call it "informal", just as the dictionary does. However, "fun" used as an adjective is so widespread that it is impractical to say that it is not, and it is impractical to tell English language learners that a sentence such as "we had a fun time at the park" is wrong. It is correct.

The use of "fun" as an adjective is well into the millions, as we can see in these quick sample searches from Google.

fun: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com


"a fun time" - Google Search

They're fun to be around. - This is correct, and it's just the sort of thing that people say every day.

"fun to be around" - Google Search


fun: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

USAGE NOTE The use of fun as an attributive adjective, as in a fun time, a fun place, probably originated in a playful reanalysis of the use of the word in sentences such as It is fun to ski, where fun has the syntactic function of adjectives such as amusing or enjoyable. The usage became popular in the 1950s and 1960s, though there is some evidence to suggest that it has 19th-century antecedents, but it can still raise eyebrows among traditionalists. The day may come when this usage is entirely unremarkable, but writers may want to avoid it in more formal contexts.

For me and many others, that day has arrived.

 

[orangutan]

Which is why I was careful to say "etymologically".

 

[PROESL]

Michael Swan, Practical Engish Usage

Page 185 Section 210

Fun is normally an uncountable noun. It can be used after be to say that things or people are enjoyable or entertaining.

The party was fun, wasn't it.
Anne and Eric are a lot of fun.

So Michael has no problem using "fun" as a predicate adjective.

Here's the next part of his usage note on "fun"

In informal English, fun can also be used as an adjective before a noun.

That was a real fun party.

It's not practical to hold ELLs to a particular standard while native speakers don't even give this "standard" a thought. Native speakers use "fun" as an adjective every day.

 

[RonBee]

Additional note:
.

The use of "funner" has apparently caught on amongst younger folk. (We old fogies will, no doubt, stick to "more fun".)
​

.

As for "more red", most native speakers would find that usage unremarkable.

 

[PROESL]

Which is why I was careful to say "etymologically".

That's quite understandable, and I admit I overlooked that part of your post. However, ESL speakers, or ELLs, want to know what they can say.

Can-I-say questions do not mean "tell me the most traditionalist and conservative point of view regarding my question". Can-I-say questions are practical inquiries into what one is able to say and be correct among native speakers who don't think about disputed usage or etymology. I do not in any way mean to say that your point about etymology is not valid. It certainly is. However, I think we should agree that practical guidance for ELLs is important.

 

[orangutan]

That's quite understandable, and I admit I overlooked that part of your post. However, ESL speakers, or ELLs, want to know what they can say.

Can-I-say questions do not mean "tell me the most traditionalist and conservative point of view regarding my question". Can-I-say questions are practical inquiries into what one is able to say and be correct among native speakers who don't think about disputed usage or etymology. I do not in any way mean to say that your point about etymology is not valid. It certainly is. However, I think we should agree that practical guidance for ELLs is important.

I don't disagree; but my point was that since "fun" is historically not an adjective, we wouldn't expect it to have developed adjectival comparative endings. Thus the irregularity you originally mentioned has an explanation.

 

[bhaisahab]

Additional note:
.

The use of "funner" has apparently caught on amongst younger folk. (We old fogies will, no doubt, stick to "more fun".)
​

.

As for "more red", most native speakers would find that usage unremarkable.

How do you quantify "most native speakers"?

 

[bhaisahab]

We had a fun time at the park.

Yes, "fun" is an adjective. We can call it "informal", just as the dictionary does. However, "fun" used as an adjective is so widespread that it is impractical to say that it is not, and it is impractical to tell English language learners that a sentence such as "we had a fun time at the park" is wrong. It is correct.

The use "fun" as an adjective is well into the millions, as we can see in these quick sample searches from Google.

fun: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com


"a fun time" - Google Search

They're fun to be around. - This is correct, and it's just the sort of thing that people say every day.

"fun to be around" - Google Search


fun: Definition, Synonyms from Answers.com

USAGE NOTE The use of fun as an attributive adjective, as in a fun time, a fun place, probably originated in a playful reanalysis of the use of the word in sentences such as It is fun to ski, where fun has the syntactic function of adjectives such as amusing or enjoyable. The usage became popular in the 1950s and 1960s, though there is some evidence to suggest that it has 19th-century antecedents, but it can still raise eyebrows among traditionalists. The day may come when this usage is entirely unremarkable, but writers may want to avoid it in more formal contexts.

For me and many others, that day has arrived.

The fact remains that if an ESL student reading this has a test on comparatives tomorrow and puts "more red" intead of "redder" they will be marked as wrong.

 

[PROESL]

I don't disagree; but my point was that since "fun" is historically not an adjective, we wouldn't expect it to have developed adjectival comparative endings. Thus the irregularity you originally mentioned has an explanation.

Once again, that's quite understandable, and thank you for pointing this out. However, I was thinking more about the lone expression "fun is not an adjective". This doesn't leave ELLs ready to go out and confidently talk about the fun time they had over the weekend on a Monday with their colleagues at work or at school - or wherever they speak to native speakers of English.

Doug - Did you have a fun time at the company outing on Saturday?

Taro - Yes, I had a f .. mm... (he said fun time) ah .. Yes, it was enjoyable. :-?

:-D

 

[bhaisahab]

Once again, that's quite understandable, and thank you for pointing this out. However, I was thinking more about the lone expression "fun is not adjective". This doesn't leave ELLs ready to go out and confidently talk about the fun time they had over the weekend on a Monday with their colleagues at work or at school - or wherever they speak to native speakers of English.

Doug - Did you have a fun time at the company outing on Saturday?

Taro - Yes, I had a f .. mm... (he said fun time) ah .. Yes, it was enjoyable. :-?

:-D

"Did you have a fun time?" is strictly AmE. So fun as an adjective is AmE. AmE is not the only and not the most important variety of English in the world.

 

[orangutan]

Once again, that's quite understandable, and thank you for pointing this out. However, I was thinking more about the lone expression "fun is not adjective". This doesn't leave ELLs ready to go out and confidently talk about the fun time they had over the weekend on a Monday with their colleagues at work or at school - or wherever they speak to native speakers of English.

I didn't actually quite say "fun is not an adjective". Though for the record I am still not entirely convinced it is, at least in my variety of English.

Certainly however it can be attributive, and I would teach "a fun time" as perfectly grammatical.

 

[PROESL]

The fact remains that if an ESL student reading this has a test on comparatives tomorrow and puts "more red" intead of "redder" they will be marked as wrong.

I believe it's more appropriate to quote here:

Yes, it's correct to say or write "redder", and the rule applies to colors as well. However, this "rule" is based on common usage by native speakers. In other words, first the pattern was observed and then it was decided that this pattern is a "rule". However, we do hear and read, though I wouldn't say too often, that speakers and writers deviate from the common pattern or "rule" when it comes to comparative and superlative forms of adjectives.

Exceptions to the "rule" could seem arbitrary. For example, we say "more fun", and it is incorrect to say "funner". So what's to stop someone from feeling more comfortable saying "more red" than saying "redder"?

There are times when rules are better called "guidelines" than "rules". So while it's correct to say "redder", I would not necessarily say that a native speaker of English who says or writes "more red" has poor language skills or that breaking this "rule" is representative of uneducated language, necessarily.

Some of the more intelligent people in the world often speak on National Public Radio, and I hear that some of these speakers sometimes don't follow all the "rules" as codified in English grammar books and references and as taught, perhaps in a very rigid way, to English language learners.

This post does not tell ELLs to say "more red". I am merely making an accurate observation, which is verified by how we observe people use language online. Yes, using "more" for one syllable adjectives is not correct. We should use the er ending. However, ignoring this usage hardly makes sense because ELLs will hear it and read it, and they will want an explanation. My post provides an explanation. It's not practical to simply ignore something that ELLs will encounter.

"a more red" - Google Search=

"a more blue" - Google Search=

"a more brown" - Google Search=

In the post that you quoted, I'm merely pointing out that "fun" is an adjective.

I merely said that some native speakers deviate from the comparative rule from time to time (when it comes to certain words, that is).
____________________________________________________

The fact remains that if an ESL student reading this has a test on comparatives tomorrow and puts "more red" intead of "redder" they will be marked as wrong.

My post will not lead students to that.

I don't feel that tests have the most relevance anyway. Tests are not important. When I teach TOEFL students, I keep such things in mind. However, I mostly teach English for practical purposes: formal - meetings and presentations, conferences, speaking on the phone - informal - talking to work colleagues - making small talk with clients and customers - talking to your kids' teachers at school etcetera. - formal - business emails - or using an informal register in writing as necessary or as the situation requires it.

If a student asks "why do I hear people say "more red", for example, I think my explanation is very practical. I'm not about to say "I don't know, but it's wrong."

;-)

 

[RonBee]

How do you quantify "most native speakers"?

The people I know.
;-)
;-)

"more fun" - Google Search
Results 1 - 10 of about 42,900,000 for "more fun".

​

Examples:

Doing searches on Google is more fun that it used to be.
;-)

I played volleyball and we won four games. I had more fun than I had had in a long time.

;-)

This is a lot more fun than I thought it would be.

;-)

It is more and more fun every day.
;-)

​

;-)

 

[PROESL]

"Did you have a fun time?" is strictly AmE. So fun as an adjective is AmE.

I don't believe that "Did you have a fun time" is strictly American English.

AmE is not the only and not the most important variety of English in the world.

I've never said it was.

UK Google

"a fun time" - Google Search

Australia Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

South Africa Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

Canada Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

New Zealand Google

"a fun time" - Google Search=

Belize Google

"a fun time" - Google Search

 

[PROESL]

I didn't actually quite say "fun is not an adjective". Though for the record I am still not entirely convinced it is, at least in my variety of English.

Certainly however it can be attributive, and I would teach "a fun time" as perfectly grammatical.

I know you didn't say it. I read it in another post.

;-)