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  1. #91
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    No, this search does not provide evidence to that claim at all. If you think it does, then can you explain how?

    "I thought I replied" - Google Search
    Have you tried googling "I thought I have replied"? There are lots of entries for that too. I have seen many entries with "I thought I had replied" too.

  2. #92
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    Neither are personal attacks necessary. I type fast and leave out words or mispell words. By stating that I've made errors is only to restate what you have stated already without providing any reasoning on which to base your argument.

    Here's the question: What reason can you give for stating that "I thought I replied" is not as good or not as correct as "I thought I had replied" when both are isolated sentences?

    I've given reasons and have shown examples. You have run out of things to post. Therefore, you must resort to these sorts of comments:
    That's not something I meant as a personal attack. It was just an example of how we native speakers often post language with errors on the Internet. But it's gone now, I think it was edited out. I've also pointed out my own spelling errors on other threads, too.

  3. #93
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I hadn't noticed Lycen's use of the word. But you did type it too, so I thought you were using the word. There is no subterfuge or diversion. Personally, I wouldn't say anyone's local sort of English is sub-par, even if someone else started it.

    I didn't say anyone's sort of English was subpar. However, there's no market for teaching Chinglish or Singlish, so this is not relevant here. Nor would they be at all relevant in ESL or EFL.

    Once again, Lycen called them into discussion. Lycen called them subpar, and to attribute this to me first is a form of subterfuge.

    Why don't you answer the original question: What reasoning can you provide for saying that "I thought I had replied" is better than "I thought I replied" when both sentences do not have a context. I've provided examples and reasons.

  4. #94
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    You did indeed say that the term pluperfect is antiquated, and that it is now called the past perfect, and that it is not a tense. I think you had forgotten, since you wrote above to our OP that you hadn't made that statement, after he or she went to the trouble of verifying it.

    In any case, a linguistic debate is good fun, isn't it?

    What I really mean by '"in that case" the OP needs to use the pluperfect' is this: when the state of affairs in question includes three times (present, past 1, and past 2) and when one of them takes place just moments before the present (the 'uh-oh, I thought' moment) and the other past moment is well before that (last week-end's attempted e-mail reply) then I don't think it's anything more than a colloquial eliding of the facts to use the phrase 'I thought I replied,' because it simplifies the time line to the point of amalgamating all past moments into one. In such cases, I think it's an imprecise, almost 'lazy' approximation to write it in that way. "I thought I had replied," on the other hand, correctly accounts for the temporal dimensions of the state of affairs as it actually unfolded. The "uh-oh" moment is accurately portrayed as a recollection of a previous attempt to reply, that was significantly before that "uh-oh" moment. It also shows that the speaker was for some time convinced that the response had been previously sent.

    So, if you compare an approximation that is unlikely to be misunderstood only because logically you can't think you replied before you try to do so, on the one hand, and on the other hand we have an expression that explicitly accounts for the facts in a complete and unambiguous way, I think we can observe a differing value judgment regarding the relative correctness of the two, in terms of the norms of written English, which are themselves more conservative, more universal and more international than any one vernacular.

    I just felt that given a learner who had been reading a textbook explaining the use of the pluperfect, we ought then to have used the textbook's standard of written English when discussing normative correctness, rather than troubling the student with opinions about whether more recent or more local standards should now replace those of the textbook.

    To summarize, "I thought I replied" I am still convinced is an oral approximation rather than an equally well constructed alternative to "I thought I had replied" if we are talking about the sequence of events I described above.

    I am sorry if my love for such linguistic debates has detracted from anyone's pleasure at using the forum.
    konungursvia has elucidated.

  5. #95
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    That's not something I meant as a personal attack. It was just an example of how we native speakers often post language with errors on the Internet. But it's gone now, I think it was edited out. I've also pointed out my own spelling errors on other threads, too.
    There are performance errors and there are competency errors. Of all the returns for "I thought I replied", it is not practical to call a few million of them "competency errors", "performance errors", or errors of any kind.

    As native speakers we all "performance errors" from time to time in both speaker and writing when we are well aware of what is really correct. I hear this every day.

  6. #96
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    I didn't say anyone's sort of English was subpar. However, there's no market for teaching Chinglish or Singlish, so this is not relevant here. Nor would they be at all relevant in ESL or EFL.

    Once again, Lycen called them into discussion. Lycen called them subpar, and to attribute this to me first is a form of subterfuge.

    Why don't you answer the original question: What reasoning can you provide for saying that "I thought I had replied" is better than "I thought I replied" when both sentences do not have a context. I've provided examples and reasons.
    Oh, when both sentences have no context? I thought I'd already mentioned that in that case, I don't find we can say anything much about them. It's context that gives sentences accuracy or inaccuracy, and it often supplies them with correctness /incorrectness.

    I already explained this position above, when I used the example of the workman on the house vs in the house. Again, you need only read carefully, and you will see there is no subterfuge.

    It's just that the conversation has taken multiple turns, with many people giving input. No one strand stands out more than the others.

  7. #97
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    It still looks like a lazy/rough approximation of "I thought I had replied".
    As lycen and konungursvia have already said.
    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    Are you saying that because they said it, it must be so?
    I don't think so; he's just saying that he agrees with them. I'm not sure I do, but I make a point of not debating a point just for the fun of debating it, particularly when students tuned out ages ago. This forum is called 'Ask a Teacher'.

    b

  8. #98
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by lycen View Post
    konungursvia has elucidated.
    Elucidating is not reasoning. It's not providing clear, logical, reasons to support the assertion that "I thought I had replied" is better than "I thought I replied" when both are isolated sentences.

  9. #99
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    I don't think so; he's just saying that he agrees with them. I'm not sure I do, but I make a point of not debating a point just for the fun of debating it, particularly when students tuned out ages ago. This forum is called 'Ask a Teacher'.

    b
    Pont taken. However, in the context of this question: "Did the teacher tell me the right thing?" - I felt compelled - even obliged - to build the case for what I said.

    Your point is a good one, and it is taken, however.

  10. #100
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    Re: I thought I had

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    Elucidating is not reasoning. It's not providing clear, logical, reasons to support the assertion that "I thought I had replied" is better than "I thought I replied" when both are isolated sentences.
    I did provide clear, logical reasons supporting what I thought and why. I don't know why you say I haven't done so.

    I think we've all stated our opinions here, haven't we? I just didn't want anyone to finish it off with something like "Right, so now we all see: they're both equally correct" in case new readers might misunderstand that no consensus had been reached. Or was reached.

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