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    • Join Date: Sep 2009
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    #61

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    Agreed, in part, but a good teacher recognizes a student's needs. One of mine, who is practising law in Hong Kong, and is a native Cantonese speaker, has frequently been shown frustration by judges (all Brits and Aussies, a few Kiwis) because of his English attainment level.

    He has specifically asked me to help him master the English language as they use it. It's a request I can understand, and can help him with.

    Is that pandering? Are his ideas errant?

    I don't think so, personally.
    We're dancing around the issue here, Kon. What are the judges complaints, that he doesn't use enough prescriptions in his writing/speech? These judges don't use English any differently than anyone else.


    • Join Date: Sep 2009
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    #62

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by PROESL View Post
    judging cats at a cat show have to do with mammalian biology." <<

    Mmm... That somehow sounds familiar.
    Hence the quotation marks. You're familiar with those, I presume.


    • Join Date: Jul 2009
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    #63

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    Agreed, in part, but a good teacher recognizes a student's needs. One of mine, who is practising law in Hong Kong, and is a native Cantonese speaker, has frequently been shown frustration by judges (all Brits and Aussies, a few Kiwis) because of his English attainment level.

    He has specifically asked me to help him master the English language as they use it. It's a request I can understand, and can help him with.

    Is that pandering? Are his ideas errant?

    I don't think so, personally.
    I fully agree with you on this, though I haven't asked for albeit's permission to agree. I hope albeit thinks it's okay.

    However, can you be absolutely sure that it his lack of prescriptive usage that the judges find fault with, or just his general ability with English grammar as an ESL speaker? Just checking here to be sure.

    I bring up context and register in such cases. Sometimes certain language is required or better in certain situations. It depends on the email, the letter, or the speaking. Is it a prepared formal speech? Are you talking to a client that would not be able to relate very well to language that sounds unnecessarily formal? What's the situation?

  1. konungursvia's Avatar
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    • Join Date: Mar 2009
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    #64

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by albeit View Post
    We're dancing around the issue here, Kon. What are the judges complaints, that he doesn't use enough prescriptions in his writing/speech? These judges don't use English any differently than anyone else.
    They use it differently than my Jamaican friends here in Toronto.
    They use it differently than my mother's extended family in the Midlands.
    They use it differently than my AmE colleagues at our universities.
    They use it differently than bilingual Hong Kong children.

    Do you really think these people don't qualify as "anyone else"?

    All social milieux (milieus?) have their own particular norms.

    What Bhaisahab and others have referred to as "correct written British English" and similar phrases can't be said not to exist. It might be said not to apply here, but saying it's a chimera is kind of obtuse.


    • Join Date: Jul 2009
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    #65

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    They use it differently than my Jamaican friends here in Toronto.
    They use it differently than my mother's extended family in the Midlands.
    They use it differently than my AmE colleagues at our universities.
    They use it differently than bilingual Hong Kong children.

    Do you really think these people don't qualify as "anyone else"?

    All social milieux (milieus?) have their own particular norms.

    What Bhaisahab and others have referred to as "correct written British English" and similar phrases can't be said not to exist. It might be said not to apply here, but saying it's a chimera is kind of obtuse.
    Oh come on! Be courageous! Split that infinitive!

    What Bhaisahab and others have referred to as "correct written British English" and similar phrases can't be said to not to exist.


  2. konungursvia's Avatar
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    #66

    Re: use of 'already'

    I prefer not to split infinitives, in most cases. Not that I care for prescriptive rules binding my hands either, but I just find it's inelegant to do so in my own writing. It sounds to me a bit like losing track of what you're saying, then muddling through anyhow with another word order. But that's just me. (It's not a lack of courage, methinks) :)


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    #67

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    I prefer not to split infinitives, in most cases. Not that I care for prescriptive rules binding my hands either, but I just find it's inelegant to do so in my own writing. It sounds to me a bit like losing track of what you're saying, then muddling through anyhow with another word order. But that's just me. (It's not a lack of courage, methinks) :)
    I understand.

    Before becoming aware of the "split infinitive", I had always split infinitives anyway. Then one day I put a sentence on the board, and a student said "Aren't you splitting an infinitive?"

    Now I split infinitives completely aware of what I'm doing with the expectation of sending the descriptive troops into battle against the "language mavens". Call in the usage notes! Get the Pinker quotations! Summon the false comparisons to Latin. English is not Latin! There are no infinitives to split in Latin-based languages! Try splitting these: faire; hacer; fazer. It's impossible! English is not like this!

    Last edited by PROESL; 28-Sep-2009 at 21:33.


    • Join Date: Jul 2009
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    #68

    Re: use of 'already'

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    They use it differently than my Jamaican friends here in Toronto.
    They use it differently than my mother's extended family in the Midlands.
    They use it differently than my AmE colleagues at our universities.
    They use it differently than bilingual Hong Kong children.

    Do you really think these people don't qualify as "anyone else"?

    All social milieux (milieus?) have their own particular norms.

    What Bhaisahab and others have referred to as "correct written British English" and similar phrases can't be said not to exist. It might be said not to apply here, but saying it's a chimera is kind of obtuse.
    I understand exactly what you mean. I take a more descriptive viewpoint, but if the student requires a prescriptive approach, then that's what the teacher should provide.

    It's interesting how I find your method of discussion much more pleasant while at the same time I would tend to be more in agreement with albeit's views. It's the presentation of albeit's views that leaves much to be desired - in my opinion, of course.



    • Join Date: Jul 2009
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    #69

    Re: use of 'already'

    Try splitting these: faire; hacer; fazer. It's impossible! English is not like this!
    I forgot "fare", but I don't know any Italian. Just the same, why leave it out?

    What about Catalan? What's "make" and "do" in Catalan?


    • Join Date: Jul 2009
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    #70

    Re: use of 'already'

    Certainly, we can't dismiss the language of a latte sipping young urban professional posting on Facebook while sitting in a Starbucks cafe as being wrong, can we?
    Of course, we can't dismiss the language of the latte sippers. The latte sippers are smart. But they'd have no idea of prescriptivism, descriptivism, or any other isms, and they certainly don't care about the "language mavens". The latte sippers just talk. That's where you hear the "uptalk" sometimes.

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