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    • Join Date: Sep 2009
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    #1

    After seeing + pronoun + ?

    Hi,

    I would like to know why in sentences like "After seeing you cry, I couldn't do it" and "After seeing him do, I didn't want to do it", the past tense is not used in the first clause. What grammatically form are these?

    Thank you.


    • Join Date: Nov 2009
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    #2

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    After seeing him crying, ... . The participle in bold is an objective complement; it completes the meaning of the object (him) of the verb seeing.

    After seeing him (to) cry, ... . The infinitive clause, whose (to) is dropped, functions as an objective complement.

    Both complements are non-finite clauses, which means they are not inflected for tense, person, and number.

    What is the difference between the two forms? The crying form means you saw him in the act, part of her act of crying. On the other hand, the infinitive form denotes the whole process of crying was witnessed.

    Got it?


    • Join Date: Sep 2009
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    #3

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondorosi View Post
    After seeing him crying, ... . The participle in bold is an objective complement; it completes the meaning of the object (him) of the verb seeing.
    Isn't "crying" here a gerund? It's a noun in this context.


    • Join Date: Nov 2009
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    #4

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    By saying participle, I was referring to form, not function. Form and function; function and form. They are different concepts. There is no such thing as a gerund form. Nothwithstanding this, I would be very surprised if you could convince me that we have a gerund in that sentence. "crying" describes the object of the verb 'him'.

    I saw the crying (he).


    • Join Date: Sep 2009
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    #5

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondorosi View Post
    By saying participle, I was referring to form, not function. Form and function; function and form. They are different concepts. There is no such thing as a gerund form. Nothwithstanding this, I would be very surprised if you could convince me that we have a gerund in that sentence. "crying" describes the object of the verb 'him'.

    I saw the crying (he).
    It is a form (present participle) which is functioning as a noun.

    Gerund: a form regularly derived from a verb and functioning as a noun
    Gerund Definition | Definition of Gerund at Dictionary.com

    Gerunds are -ing forms of verbs, but they are not part of any
    verb tense. Instead, they are used as nouns.
    Gerunds: Form and Use (#1), by Dennis Oliver - Free English Grammar Lessons

    Your example shown above is an apt usage of a gerund in a sentence.

    Some other examples:

    Swimming is a sport.
    I watch the swimming competition.

    Crying is done when someone is sad.
    I saw him/the crying.

    From Wikipedia,
    In English, the gerund is identical in form to the present participle and can behave as a verb within a clause (so that it may be modified by an adverb or have an object), but the clause as a whole (sometimes consisting of only one word, the gerund itself) acts as a noun within the larger sentence.

    Verb patterns with the gerund; prepositions are often followed by a gerund:

    After two years of deciding, we finally made a decision.
    We postponed making any decision.
    Last edited by lycen; 26-Nov-2009 at 21:52.


    • Join Date: Nov 2009
    • Posts: 966
    #6

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    Gerunds are -ing forms of verbs, but they are not part of any
    verb tense. Instead, they are used as
    nouns.
    And? It does not say all -ing forms are gerunds.

    Some other examples:

    Swimming is a sport. The subject in the sentence can only be realized by a noun. This does not prove anything.
    I watch the swimming competition. -- The object of a verb can only be realized by a noun. This does not prove anything either, as in my sentence, the -ing form is not an object, but an objective complement

    Crying is done when someone is sad. -- Subject; noun.
    I saw him crying. -- this is a verbal participle crying

    From Wikipedia,
    Verb patterns with the gerund; prepositions are often followed by a gerund:

    You trust Wiki? Every man Jack of us can compose an article in Wiki.

    After two years of deciding, we finally made a decision. -- prepositional complements can only be realized by nouns. What does this prove?
    We postponed making any decision. We postponed what? What means a noun.


    • Join Date: Nov 2009
    • Posts: 966
    #7

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    The local residents often saw Ken wandering through the streets.

    Verbals: Gerunds, Participles, and Infinitives: Participles - The OWL at Purdue

    Participle.


    • Join Date: Sep 2009
    • Posts: 114
    #8

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kondorosi View Post
    And? It does not say all -ing forms are gerunds

    Some other examples:

    Swimming is a sport. The subject in the sentence can only be realized by a noun. This does not prove anything.
    I watch the swimming competition. -- The object of a verb can only be realized by a noun. This does not prove anything either, as in my sentence, the -ing form is not an object, but an objective complement
    Swimming here acts as an adjective; participle

    Crying is done when someone is sad. -- Subject; noun.
    I saw him crying. -- this is a verbal participle crying
    You wrote "I saw the crying" that'd make it a gerund.

    From Wikipedia,
    Verb patterns with the gerund; prepositions are often followed by a gerund:

    You trust Wiki? Every man Jack of us can compose an article in Wiki.

    Well, I used it to find some information for my science subjects, it proved to be quite reliable. I don't blindly follow what is stated on Wiki. Is it just me or there's really a condescending tone in your post? Yes, Purdue's is obviously more reliable.

    After two years of deciding, we finally made a decision. -- prepositional complements can only be realized by nouns. What does this prove?
    I was asking for enlightenment, not a challenge.
    We postponed making any decision. We postponed what? What means a noun. "We postponed the making of a decision", now we do have a gerund phrase, don't we?
    Thank you for the link though.
    Last edited by lycen; 26-Nov-2009 at 23:00.


    • Join Date: Nov 2009
    • Posts: 966
    #9

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    You wrote "I saw the crying"
    No I did not ever did so. I wrote 'After seeing him crying' and you said
    Isn't "crying" here a gerund? It's a noun in this context.
    It is not a noun; it is a postpositive adjective, a participle, that modifies 'him'.
    Thank you for the link though.
    That though, what does it mean

    Well, I used it to find some information for my science subjects, it proved to be quite reliable. I don't blindly follow what is stated on Wiki. Is it just me or there's really a condescending tone in your post? Yes, Purdue's is obviously more reliable
    Yes, and the reason for scientific articles' greater reliability could be that not many people feel a moving force to comment on topics related to, say, statistical thermodynamics. Only the most dedicated pros.

    Sorry if I aroused bad feelings in you with any of my comments. If I did, I did it unknowingly.


    • Join Date: Sep 2009
    • Posts: 114
    #10

    Re: After seeing + pronoun + ?

    That though, what does it mean?
    Nothing in particular, just rhetorical.
    The website you gave me is really useful.

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