# Thread: such as and including

1. ## such as and including

I have seen a few examples in which the phrase "X, such as and including Y" is used. I thought "such as" and "including" are redundant and the juxtaposition of the two does not add any new meaning. Can you clarify on this?

2. ## Re: such as and including

Originally Posted by Ju1ian
I have seen a few examples in which the phrase "X, such as and including Y" is used. I thought "such as" and "including" are redundant and the juxtaposition of the two does not add any new meaning. Can you clarify on this?
There are situations in which those expressions are interchangeable. So you may use both to grant full understanding to your idea.

"Such as" may also mean "similar to", while "including" really includes.
Let us try to construct some examples where they have different meanings:

"I am looking for a mathematical structure such as the set of reals but where it is possible to divide by zero." (the set of reals is not included)

"He would marry any girl such as Emmy, but not including Emmy herself since she was his sister."

There may be situations in which they are really redundant, but you may use both for emphasis. Regarding such emphasis, take a look for instance at http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/as...orm-shape.html
and http://www.usingenglish.com/forum/as...tautology.html

3. ## Re: such as and including

Originally Posted by Ju1ian
I have seen a few examples in which the phrase "X, such as and including Y" is used. I thought "such as" and "including" are redundant and the juxtaposition of the two does not add any new meaning. Can you clarify on this?
This sounds like a specifically mathematical phrase. Can you provide a more complete sentence? Any mathematicians out there?

4. ## Re: such as and including

"His main interest concerned finding solutions to equations, such as quadratic equations. Quadratic equations have the form ax˛+bx+c=0, where a, b, c can have any value." (From Fermat's Enigma by Simon Singh)

In this passage the author is talking about Galois, who naturally already knew the solution to quadratic equations. Here "such as" is used by a native speaker without "and including." It means the desired equations are similar to the quadratic ones but are not themselves quadratic.

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