[Grammar] then

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corum

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Ola!

the then President of America

In this NP, which word class would you assign 'then' to? If possible, please provide motivated reasons for your argument. Thanks.
 

curmudgeon

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Whats an NP?

The then president means at that time in the past.
 

mmasny

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It must be an adjective here, it modifies the noun.
I am not a teacher.
 

corum

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Hi,

NP = N(oun) P(hrase). Mnasy, adjective on the grounds that it modifies President of America?

*The President of America was then. -- 'then' cannot occure predicatively
*The [then and young] President.
*The [very then] President.
* The [most then] President.
Which President? :tick: *The then one.

'then' does not manifest its adjectival status in the above sentences, which forces me to think it is not really an adjective.

I am not a teacher.

Who cares? ;-) It does not follow that you can't run rings around one. Thanks for your input.
 

curmudgeon

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Hee hee, I'm getting old
 

mmasny

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Hi,

NP = N(oun) P(hrase). Mnasy, adjective on the grounds that it modifies President of America?
YES
*The President of America was then. -- 'then' cannot occure predicatively
*The [then and young] President.
*The [very then] President.
Would you say the very elected president? And still, elected is an adjective in this phrase. There are many adjectives that cannot be graded.
Gradable adjectives | TeachingEnglish | British Council | BBC

* The [most then] President.
Which President? :tick: *The then one.
Do you agree that the word 'latter' is an adjective?
'then' does not manifest its adjectival status in the above sentences, which forces me to think it is not really an adjective.
This is a somewhat wierd adjective, that's for sure. I am still not a teacher and can be wrong.
 

curmudgeon

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yes the ' then' is gone
 

corum

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Hee hee, I'm getting old

An NP was already an NP as long back as in the 60's. :)

True, even a true-blue adjective would not necessarily stand all these tests, but when a word fails all but one, that could be a signal that we might be barking up the wrong tree.
I agree that latter is an adjective, because it can do these things:

He is the latter (one).
You will be late.
 
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curmudgeon

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I was taught never to use abbreviations or acronyms. They can be confusing and misleading and they are definitely not English, unless of course we enter the realms of 'text speak'!
Nosy Parents
Now Playing
Notary Public
Natural Pewter
No Parking
Nondeterministically Polynomial
Nuclear Plant
NP = No Problem :-D
 

mmasny

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An NP was already an NP as long back as in the 60's. :)

True, even a true-blue adjective would not necessarily stand all these tests, but when a word fails all but one, that could be a signal that we might be barking up the wrong tree.
I agree that latter is an adjective, because it can do these things:

He is the latter (one).
You will be late.
OK, if we want to discuss anything we need definitions. The universe doesn't want to tell us what's the Absolute Definition of an Adjective so we need our own. What's yours?
 

corum

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OK, if we want to discuss anything we need definitions. The universe doesn't want to tell us what's the Absolute Definition of an Adjective so we need our own. What's yours?

You managed to put your finger on my problem.

bread box
then president

In my book, there are semantic as well as syntactic criteria that a word has to meet for it to be assigned to the word class of adjectives.

With 'then', at almost every turn I am confronted with contradictions. Consider this, for example:

*very then
*very perfect

Both 'then' and 'perfect' denote meanings that are absolute and so they generally cannot be qualified or compared. Absolute adjectives can be used predicatively as well as attributively. The absolute adjective status of perfect is confirmed by

It is perfect.
It is a perfect day.,

but 'then' fails to show this typical characteristic. What is 'then' then? Is it an adjective too and we should stretch the line with 'then' in terms of this typical characteristic? How should we lay down the law so that 'then' fills the bill of adjectives?

He (click here) says then is an adverb in the original sentence. I would be interested in his definition for an adjective (and an adverb).
 

mmasny

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I still don't know the criteria you mentioned, so it's hard for me to discuss. Why don't you want to accept 'then' as an absolute adjective that can't be used predicatively? Is there any "legal" reason?
 

corum

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Why don't you want to accept 'then' as an absolute adjective that can't be used predicatively?

Because I do not think I am an authority to overrule grammars. I am trying to cope with the situation of 'then' within the limits that are set in grammar books.
 

mmasny

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Because I do not think I am an authority to overrule grammars. I am trying to cope with the situation of 'then' within the limits that are set in grammar books.
And who's the authority? There is none (or there are many, which doesn't make much difference). Can you quote the criteria from the book?
 

corum

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And who's the authority? There is none (or there are many, which doesn't make much difference). Can you quote the criteria from the book?

This is what Bas says (his analysis is neither eloquent nor convincing):

Consider the NP below:

(1) the then president of America

then =? adv.
then =? adj.

Although this word looks like an adverb, it would not be unreasonable to hypothesise that it is in fact an adjective, because it is positioned in front of the Head noun President, a typical adjectival position. We should then investigate whether then behaves like an adjective in other respects too. For example, we might ask whether it can be preceded by a modifier like very. The answer is clearly no, as the following phrase shows:

(2) the very then President of America

Next, we might see then takes comparative or superlative forms for then:

The most then President of America

You will recall from Chapter 3 that another typical property of adjectives is that they can occur predicatively.

The President of America was then.

My problem so far is this:

1. *very perfect; perfect = adjective
2. *more perfect; perfect = adjective
3. *sport is outdoor; outdoor sport

To recap, so far Bas said nothing to convince me. :)

We have to conclude that then shares only one of the properties of adjectives, namely the ability to occur attributively in NPs. However, this is a necessary, but not sufficient, reason for assigning this word to the adjective class. What we will say is that then is an adverb which can exceptionally be placed in front of a noun, in the same way that some nouns can be placed in front of other nouns (as in e.g. the fan heater).

I can't see the ground on which rest his justification for rejecting the adjectival interpretation.
 

mmasny

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I can't see the ground on which rest his justification for rejecting the adjectival interpretation.
I can't see it either.
Besides what we have already said, i.e. that the adjectives (as we understand them) don't have to be comparable or gradable, there are also other words that can be such. Some adverbs can take comparative and superlative forms, e.g. 'well'. Hence, the analogous reasoning might lead us to a conclusion that 'then' isn't an adverb either.

That said, we can also take a look at the word 'other' which, to me, looks very much like an adjective. It does not take either comparative or superlative form, and, what's more, it can't normally be used predicatively.
 
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Jaskin

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Hi
I think it's impossible to make the distincion considering just the Noun phrase.
If I can use physics language „the then” is in a superposition of states. ;-)
There are two possible meanings of „the then” one is
adjectival : „former
and
adverbial : „at that time

There where I could substitute „at that time” for „the then” without changing the meaning and rewording the sentence I would say it's an adverb,
There where the substitution would change the meaning or I had to reword the sentence I would class it as an adjective.

Let me explain that on an example :

He accused Nikson , the then president of America, of ....

He accused Nikson , at that time president of America, of ....

In the above I would say it's an adverb.

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Please note I'm not a teacher nor a native speaker,
 

corum

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*sport is outdoor; outdoor sport

Absolute adjectives can be used predicatively as well as attributively.

*very outdoor
*most outdoor

-->
Absolute adjectives can be used predicatively as well as attributively. :down::down::down::down:
 
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