[Grammar] Comma use

[nwalford]

(writer not teacher)

How to comma a sentence with the form of:”The customary notice period was waived and almost immediately he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.”
Strict grammar tells me it's 'waived, and, almost immediately, he' (which seems pedantic)
My editor prefers 'waived, and almost immediately, he (which seems unnatural)
I prefer "waived and, almost immediately, he" (which is how I would read it)
Which one please?

 

[Raymott]

(writer not teacher)

How to comma a sentence with the form of:”The customary notice period was waived and almost immediately he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.”
Strict grammar tells me it's 'waived, and, almost immediately, he' (which seems pedantic)
My editor prefers 'waived, and almost immediately, he (which seems unnatural)
I prefer "waived and, almost immediately, he" (which is how I would read it)
Which one please?

"Comma" as a verb - interesting! But if you have to use it, try "How should I comma this sentence ...", "How do/would you comma this sentence...", "How does one ..."
If you're at the stage of verbing your own nouns, you should be able to dispense with the "How to verb?" construction, which does not exist in proper English.

To your question:
1. ”The customary notice period was waived, and almost immediately he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.”

2. ”The customary notice period was waived and, almost immediately, he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.”

In 1. the comma is optional, and signifies a pause.
In 2. The twin commas surround the parenthesised adverbial phrase.
Your editor's version is not correct. If you parenthesise a phrase like this, the sentence must make sense even if you delete the phrase.

 

[nwalford]

Thanks. the editor was American, and I'm now wondering if there might be a distinctive American style of "comma-ing" that is different from the rest of the world - I've seen that form in other writings from there.

 

[Allen165]

"Comma" as a verb - interesting! But if you have to use it, try "How should I comma this sentence ...", "How do/would you comma this sentence...", "How does one ..."
If you're at the stage of verbing your own nouns, you should be able to dispense with the "How to verb?" construction, which does not exist in proper English.

To your question:
1. ”The customary notice period was waived, and almost immediately he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.”

2. ”The customary notice period was waived and, almost immediately, he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.”

In 1. the comma is optional, and signifies a pause.
In 2. The twin commas surround the parenthesised adverbial phrase.
Your editor's version is not correct. If you parenthesise a phrase like this, the sentence must make sense even if you delete the phrase.

Raymott, why did you put a comma before "and" in "In 1. the comma is optional, and signifies a pause."?

 

[Barb_D]

Strictly, the comma belongs before "and" because you have to independent clauses, each with their own subjects.

If there were two sentences, I would put the comma after "immediately."

The customary notice period was waived.
Almost immediately, he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.

If you combine these two, you do get:
The customary notice period was waived, and almost immediately, he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas.

But if you're going to put the comma after "almost immediately, you need it before as well:

The customary notice period was waived, and, almost immediately, he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas. -- I don't object to this or find it overly pedantic.

If you choose to ignore the rule about the comma before and when you have two independent clauses, then you can do this:
The customary notice period was waived and, almost immediately, he left the country to take up a new appointment overseas. -- You can remove the parenthetical "almost immediately" and have a good sentence, as Ray says.

No one will arrest you no matter what you do and there is no possible ambiguity that is created no matter how you punctuate it.

 

[billmcd]

I prefer your version.

 

[Raymott]

Raymott, why did you put a comma before "and" in "In 1. the comma is optional, and signifies a pause."?

Because that's where the pause is in this sentence. It is also optional.

 

[Raymott]

I prefer your version.

There's been quite a few versions proposed. Which are you referring to?

 

[Allen165]

Because that's where the pause is in this sentence. It is also optional.

Why would it be optional? "And signifies a pause" is not an independent clause.

 

[mmasny]

If you're at the stage of verbing your own nouns, you should be able to dispense with the "How to verb?" construction, which does not exist in proper English.

Doesn't it really?? Everybody uses it... Could you be more specific?

 

[Raymott]

Doesn't it really??
No
Everybody uses it...
They certainly do not!
Could you be more specific?
Yes

Asking a question by saying "How to use the word 'comma'?", for example, is not good English. It's not a sentence; there's no finite verb.
It's acceptable as a heading:
3.2 How to Use the word 'Comma'.
But as a question, it's never been right in standard English, and I've never seen it from a native speaker, who would say "How do you use the word 'comma'?"

By the way, if you listen to a native saying "How d'you use..." it can sound like "How to use", but that's not what they're saying.
How to say 'house' in French? Wrong
How do you say 'house' in French? Correct.

 

[Raymott]

Why would it be optional? "And signifies a pause" is not an independent clause.

It's optional because you don't have to use it, but if you want to put in a comma where there is a natural speech pause, you can.
You don't have to appeal to a technical rule every time you decide to use a comma (although you should make sure there is no rule forbidding a comma there).
In this case, there's a pause; there's no rule saying a comma can't go here, and I've inserted one for stylistic reasons.

 

[Allen165]

It's optional because you don't have to use it, but if you want to put in a comma where there is a natural speech pause, you can.
You don't have to appeal to a technical rule every time you decide to use a comma (although you should make sure there is no rule forbidding a comma there).
In this case, there's a pause; there's no rule saying a comma can't go here, and I've inserted one for stylistic reasons.

But there is a rule forbidding a comma there. One may put a comma before "and" to separate two independent clauses, but "and signifies a pause" is not an independent clause, so there should be no comma.

However, I get your point that stylistic reasons sometimes call for a comma.

 

[Raymott]

But there is a rule forbidding a comma there.
Can you state that rule?

One may put a comma before "and" to separate two independent clauses, but "and signifies a pause" is not an independent clause, so there should be no comma.

That's not logical. Think about what you're saying.
Here's your argument:
1. You may put a comma in position A.
2. Your sentence doesn't contain a position A. Therefore:
3. It is forbidden to use a comma there.

Put explicitly, the acceptability/advisability of a comma before 'and' to separate two independent clause, does NOT imply that if you don't have two independent clauses you can't put a comma there.

 

[Allen165]

That's not logical. Think about what you're saying.
Here's your argument:
1. You may put a comma in position A.
2. Your sentence doesn't contain a position A. Therefore:
3. It is forbidden to use a comma there.

Put explicitly, the acceptability/advisability of a comma before 'and' to separate two independent clause, does NOT imply that if you don't have two independent clauses you can't put a comma there.

Please read nwalford's post here: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/116851-comma-before.html.

The use of the comma before "and" is apparently wrong in this sentence: He played the piano in the morning, and washed his car in the afternoon.

Why would it then be correct in the sentence "In 1. the comma is optional, and signifies a pause."

 

[Raymott]

Please read nwalford's post here: https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/116851-comma-before.html.

The use of the comma before "and" is apparently wrong in this sentence: He played the piano in the morning, and washed his car in the afternoon.

Why would it then be correct in the sentence "In 1. the comma is optional, and signifies a pause."

OK, that makes sense.
True, if nwalford is right, then I am wrong.
You'll note that Barb disagreed with nwalford (in the following post) that this comma was 'incorrect'. I also disagree.
I believe it is optional - unnecessary, but correct if I want to use it.

If you have anything more authoritative, I might change my mind.

 

[IHIVG]

Put explicitly, the acceptability/advisability of a comma before 'and' to separate two independent clause, does NOT imply that if you don't have two independent clauses you can't put a comma there.

The rule says one should not put in a comma in a simple sentence:

In the above example, two verb groups are being joined by and. The second verb group does NOT have a subject; thus, it is NOT an independent clause.
Therefore, NO comma belongs before and.
This example is a simple sentence with a compound verb, not a compound sentence.

Major Comma Uses

 

[Allen165]

I've e-mailed Patricia O'Conner, the author of Woe is I, about the use of the comma before "and" in sentences like the ones in question, and I'll keep you posted.

 

[Linguist__]

In defence of Raymott, his original post stated both that the comma under question was optional, and that the same comma signified a pause. It is not a matter of simple sentences, subordinate clauses, and grammatical rules, it is a matter of rhythm. A comma signifies a pause. If the writer wishes to signify their own pauses in their own positions, then it is part of his/her style of writing.

If you read most of the threads regarding commas, almost everyone replies in a way that says 'Personally, I would prefer...', or some other subjective observation. Yes, there are rules where commas are 'forbidden'. Mostly, these rules are because another punctuation mark is appropriate. When it comes to pauses, the writer has great freedom to chose where they mark their pauses, and while it is a 'great sin' to include far too many commas in writing, it is an even greater sin to include none at all.

 

[mmasny]

Asking a question by saying "How to use the word 'comma'?", for example, is not good English. It's not a sentence; there's no finite verb.
It's acceptable as a heading:
3.2 How to Use the word 'Comma'.
But as a question, it's never been right in standard English, and I've never seen it from a native speaker, who would say "How do you use the word 'comma'?"

By the way, if you listen to a native saying "How d'you use..." it can sound like "How to use", but that's not what they're saying.
How to say 'house' in French? Wrong
How do you say 'house' in French? Correct.

I would probably never know it if you hadn't told me. Thanks.