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    #31

    Question Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****
    Good morning, panicmonger.

    (i) In other words, "what" = that which

    Have a nice day!
    Good morning, TheParser.

    yup, you are right, what is an indefinite relative pronoun. Thanks.

    What about where, when & how? They are conjunctions, not relative pronouns, after prepositions.

    For instance:
    1. We are proud of you despite WHERE you are living now.
    2. I still will love you despite HOW you feel about me.

    The WHERE and HOW above are not relative pronouns but conjunctions, just as:
    1. You will tell me WHEN you are back, won't you.
    (WHEN you are back is noun clause, but WHEN is conjunction)

    2. I know WHERE you have been.
    (WHERE you have been is noun clause, but WHERE is conjunction)

    I am hoping for your insight into this query. Thanks no end.
    Or anyone's advice.
    Last edited by panicmonger; 17-Apr-2010 at 04:37.

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    #32

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by panicmonger View Post
    Good morning, TheParser.

    yup, you are right, what is an indefinite relative pronoun. Thanks.
    It is a pronoun that has no antecedent and has indefinite reference.

    I know what you mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by panicmonger View Post
    1. We are proud of you despite WHERE you are living now.
    It is an indefinite connective adverb, a kind of subordinator.


    Quote Originally Posted by panicmonger View Post
    2. I still will love you despite HOW you feel about me.
    same

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    #33

    Re: the fact that ....

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****

    Good morning, panicmonger.

    (1) Thank you for your kind note.

    (2) Of course, I -- sadly -- have no insight. All I can do is let you know what I have read in my books.

    (3) You have asked some wonderful questions. I also want to know the answers.

    (4) Corum has given us some interesting ideas. Hopefully, other members will join in, too.

    (5) As for me, I need to do some studying before I even dare try to give you an answer.
    If I don't reply, it will mean that your question was too hard for me to answer with confidence.

    (6) Thanks again for posting such a great question.

    Have a nice day!

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    #34

    Post Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by TheParser View Post
    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****
    (2) Of course, I -- sadly -- have no insight. All I can do is let you know what I have read in my books.
    Sorry, if I said something that have offended you. But I think you misunderstood the sentence below.

    "I am hoping for your insight into this query."

    What I really meant is that I am waiting for your new answer to this question. Perhaps my expression is poor, so it make you misconstrue my words, I'm sorry about that. I am still hoping for your insightful answer.
    Last edited by panicmonger; 17-Apr-2010 at 11:55.

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    #35

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by corum View Post
    It is a pronoun that has no antecedent and has indefinite reference.

    I know what you mean.

    It is an indefinite connective adverb, a kind of subordinator.

    same
    Where, When and How are subordinate conjunctions, but they are still conjunctions, not indefinite relative pronouns. (according to Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)

    In my humble opinion, the "when" below is true pronoun:
    He came on Monday, since when things have been better.

    It is just my opinion, pls take it lightly.
    Last edited by panicmonger; 17-Apr-2010 at 12:12.

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    #36

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by panicmonger View Post
    Sorry, if I said something that have offended you. But I think you misunderstood the sentence below.

    "I am hoping for your insight into this query."

    What I really meant is that I am waiting for your new answer to this question. Perhaps my expression is poor, so it make you misconstrue my words, I'm sorry about that. I am still hoping for your insightful answer.
    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****

    Thank you for your note.

    (1) This is a wonderful lesson in the use of English.

    (2) Your sentence could not have offended me. In English, your sentence was a wonderful compliment.

    (3) And my answer was a courteous way to say: Oh, no! I am not that smart to give you an insightful answer.

    (4) This shows how misunderstandings can arise. It also taught me a lesson: I should be more direct. I should remember that it takes time for learners to understand the nuances of another language.

    (a) I am trying to learn Chinese and Spanish. I realize that I could easily say something that offends people.

    (5) Thanks again for the COMPLIMENT. I'm still studying the matter. Hopefully, lots of people will help us.

    Have a nice day!

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    #37

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by corum View Post
    It is an indefinite connective adverb, a kind of subordinator.
    You mean they are relative adverbs. However, some Grammar Guide states they are subordinators or conjunctions.

    Is the difference due to the different grammarians' standpoints?

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    #38

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by kl004535 View Post
    You mean they are relative adverbs. However, some Grammar Guide states they are subordinators or conjunctions.

    Is the difference due to the different grammarians' standpoints?
    This is the terminology I tend to follow:

    Connector is a large group of words that serve to join words, phrases or entire clauses. The group has three sub-types based on form-class (and not connective types). These are: conjunction, connective adverb, connective pronoun.
    This means three parts of speech can join clauses and sentence constituents. Prepositions or interjections, for example, can't.

    1. Conjunction embraces the two categories coordinators and subordinators.

    (a) Coordinator (and, or, but, etc.)

    FANBOYS. It is an acronym that is used as a mnemonics to recall the types of coordinators. Y = yet.
    I think the inventors of the acronym used a different terminology from that which I use. 'Yet' is an adverbial conjunct in my book, one of the four types of adverbials.

    (b) Subordinator (while, although, because, unless, etc)
    I have always though that only subordinators can introduce subordinate clauses. This is not true. Look at this sentence:

    We are proud of you despite WHERE you are living now.
    The whole sentence is the matrix clause or superordinate clause. 'despite' is a preposition. What follows 'despite' is a sentence constituent: a prepositional complement. How is this constituent realized? A subordinate clause is embedded into the superordinate clause. Why subordinate? Because it plays a sub role. Sub role how? It realizes part of the matrix clause. 'Where' in the sentence is a connective adverb and not a subordinator.

    There is a gradience running through between the class of coordinators and subordinators, which means there are instances of conjunctions that are not clear-cut between coordinator and subordinator? Why not clear-cut? Because the two categories have distinct features and these linking words looks like hybrids. It is not within the scope of our present considerations, so I am not going into it in detail.

    2. Connective adverb
    This is the second sub-group of fconnectors. The group of Connective adverbs has several sub-types. These are:

    (a) Adnominal conjunctive adverb

    This was the time when we first met.
    The bolded part plays a subordinate role because it specifies 'the time'. It describes 'the time' so it has adnominal (not nominal) function. 'when' is relative because it relates to its antecedent. 'the time'. Cool.

    (b) Nominal conjunctive adverbs

    This is where I am.
    where I am = 'This'; subjective complement --> subordinate; nominal

    (c) Adverbial conjunct

    These are, however, all the same, nevertheless, etc. They provide a semantic link between clauses.

    (d) Conjunctive adverbs

    They are interrogative adverbs used to introduce embedded questions.

    He asked me how I did.
    He asked where I am.
    He asked why I came.
    3. Connective pronouns

    (a) Relative adnominal connective pronouns

    I do not they guy who is standing over there.
    'who' is part of 'who is standing there'. 'who is standing there' modifies 'the guy', hence adnominal (non-nominal, adjectival). Connective, because it connects the sub-clause to the rest of the matrix clause. Pronoun, because 'who' is a pronoun. Adnominal connective pronouns usually have an antecedent.

    Another example:

    This is the time that we die.
    -- that we die = adverbial and not adjectival --> non-nominal --> adnominal; that = connective pronoun

    (b) Relative nominal connective pronoun

    Relative nominal connective pronouns do not have an antecedent.

    This is what we want.
    (c) Conjunctive connective pronoun
    He asked me what it was.
    Last edited by corum; 17-Apr-2010 at 17:43.

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    #39

    Re: the fact that ....

    4. I forgot to mention the category connective adjectives.

    (a) Conjunctive adjective

    I do not know which train to take.
    'which' is not an adjective. It is a pronoun. What does 'adjective' in 'connective adjective' refer to then? Concentrate on 'which train'. The slot that 'which' occupies is usually reserved for adjectives. That is what 'adjective' refers to.

    (b) Adnominal connective adjective

    However, considerable problems have been encountered with these various approaches, many of which problems have been overcome by the process disclosed in X.

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    #40

    Re: the fact that ....

    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****

    Good afternoon, panicmonger.

    (1) I am happy that many persons have responded to your questions.

    (2) I have studied my books, and I am now 70% confident that my answers are "correct."

    (3) Let's consider some of your sentences:

    (a) We are proud of you despite/ in spite of (where you are living).

    (i) This is probably a short way to say: We are proud of you + in spite of + (the place) + where you are living.

    (a) the place = object of the preposition.

    (b) where = relative adverb. That is, it's an adverb because it modifies "are living" and it also "relates" to the word "place."

    (c) where you are living = adjective clause modifying "place."

    (d) IMPORTANT: some books may feel that "where you are living" is just a noun clause introduced by a relative adverb and serving as object of the preposition.

    (b) I love you in spite of how you feel about me. (P. S. I am using "in spite of" rather than "despite" because it seems to better bring out the meaning of a preposition.)

    (i) Probably the full sentence is:

    I love you + in spite of + (the way) + how (= in which) you feel about me.

    (a) Again, we have a relative adverb (how)/ The way = object of the preposition.

    (c) He came on Monday, since when things have been better.

    (i) I had to think long and hard about this one.

    (ii) I think it might be analyzed as:

    He came on Monday + since (preposition) + that time + when (at which) things have been better.

    (a) Again, "when" = relative adverb. (Modifies "have been" and "relates" (thus the word "relative") to "that time.")

    (4) As you will find out as you study more English, you have to "fill in" many missing words when you try to analyze a sentence. The word for leaving out words is "ellipsis."

    Thank you for your questions. I learned a lot. Have a nice weekend.

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