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  1. Atom1995
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    #1

    the fact that ....

    Aloha, good morning.
    We eat out despite (the fact) that it is snowing.
    But for (the fact) that the resue team had came to me, I would have died already.

    Can I omit "the fact" above because that-clause is noun already after preposition?
    It's seek time.thanks no end.

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    #2

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Atom1995 View Post
    Aloha, good morning.
    We eat out despite (the fact) that it is snowing.
    But(If not) for (the fact) that the resue team had came to (reached)me, I would have died already.

    Can I omit "the fact" above because that-clause is noun already after preposition?
    It's seek time (it seeks time? it takes time?).thanks no end.
    Yes, it can be omitted.
    thanks no end - cute but unusual phrase!

  3. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by tedtmc View Post
    Yes, it can be omitted.
    thanks no end - cute but unusual phrase!
    We eat out despite that it is snowing.
    If not for that the rescue team had reached me, I would have died already.

    Are you suggesting that the above sentences are correct? They are not.

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    #4

    Re: the fact that ....

    If not for that the rescue team had reached me, I would have died already.

    But for the rescue team, I would have died.
    Had it not been for the rescue team, I would have died.

    We eat out despite [something].
    We eat out despite [the weather].
    We eat out despite [that it is snowing].
    It depends on [whether we like it].

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    #5

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by corum View Post
    But for the rescue team, I would have died.
    Had it not been for the rescue team, I would have died. We eat out despite [that it is snowing].
    These are not correct according to bhaisahad. corum?

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    #6

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by tedtmc View Post
    These are not correct according to bhaisahad. corum?
    No, my sentences are correct English.

    But for the rescue team, I would have died.
    Had it not been for the rescue team, I would have died.

  7. Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    #7

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by tedtmc View Post
    These are not correct according to bhaisahad. corum?
    We eat out despite that it is snowing.
    If not for that the rescue team had reached me, I would have died already.

    Bhaisahab's right- these are both wrong- you can't omit 'the fact'. Corum's corrections work fine.

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    #8

    Re: the fact that ....

    Quote Originally Posted by Atom1995 View Post
    Aloha, good morning.
    We eat out despite (the fact) that it is snowing.
    But for (the fact) that the resue team had came to me, I would have died already.

    Can I omit "the fact" above because that-clause is noun already after preposition?
    It's seek time.thanks no end.
    ***** NOT A TEACHER *****

    Good morning, Atom1995.

    (1) The other posters have certainly taught me a lot.

    (2) May I give you my tiny contribution?

    (3) NO, you may NOT omit "the fact."

    (a) Your sentence is basically: We eat out despite the fact.

    (b) Of course, your listener would ask, "Excuse me. What fact?"

    (c) You would then add: It is snowing.

    (d) As my favorite books tell me:


    (i) It is snowing = noun clause acting as an appositive to the word "fact."

    (ii) We eat out despite the fact (it is snowing).

    (iii) To make it more formal, you may introduce the noun clause with "that," which some books call an "expletive." It means absolutely nothing:

    We eat out despite the fact (that + it is snowing).

    (4) As the other posters told you, if you don't want to use "the fact," you will have to rewrite your sentence with a conjunction:

    We eat out even though it is snowing.

    Although it is snowing, we eat out.

    (5) Or just use a preposition:

    Despite the snow, we eat out.

    Have a nice day!

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    #9

    Re: the fact that ....

    Your sentence is basically: We eat out despite the fact.
    It is snowing = noun clause acting as an appositive to the word "fact."
    Agreed, reduced apposition. It reduces the scope of reference. Which fact?

    We eat out despite something, despite what is expressed in the proposition "It is snowing" in the form of a 'that (nominal) clause'.

    I still can't see why we pass beyond the boundaries of English grammar.

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    #10

    Re: the fact that ....

    1. My Brother Joseph is a nice guy.
    My brother is a nice guy.
    Joseph is a nice guy.

    2. We eat out despite the fact that it is snowing.
    We eat out despite that it is snowing. = Joseph is a nice guy.

    Joseph reduces the scope of reference of 'My brother'. I have more than one brother and I am talking about Joseph now. We can omit in sentence #1 what Joseph further defines: 'My brother'.

    In analogy with this in sentence #2:
    'that it is snowing' defines the reference of 'the fact' in the same way as 'Joseph' does. We can drop 'My brother', but can't we really drop 'the fact'?! Why?! Oh why?!
    Last edited by corum; 15-Apr-2010 at 16:14.

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