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Allen165

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"Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game."

I think the above sentence doesn't need "not," but is not incorrect with it. Right? I'm guessing that "not" serves as an emphasizer in the sentence.

Thanks.
 

isedehi

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"Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game."

I think the above sentence doesn't need "not," but is not incorrect with it. Right? I'm guessing that "not" serves as an emphasizer in the sentence.

Thanks.
The sentence is okay with or without 'not'. your thoughts are on the right path.
Maybe a native-speaker English Teacher would have a more appropriate answer.
 

Abstract Idea

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----- I am not an English teacher anymore -----

"Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game."

I think the above sentence doesn't need "not," but is not incorrect with it. Right? I'm guessing that "not" serves as an emphasizer in the sentence.

Thanks.

I completely agree with you.
 

billmcd

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I agree. "Not" is not necessary. OR, Not is not necessary especially not after using it once. A little humor, very little I suppose.
 

kfredson

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"Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game."

I think the above sentence doesn't need "not," but is not incorrect with it. Right? I'm guessing that "not" serves as an emphasizer in the sentence.

Thanks.

I can imagine that you might say this in spoken English and get away with it. It looks funny when it is written, however. I don't see how it emphasizes the negative; to me it simply adds a note of confusion.

You made me think, though. Thanks for bringing it to us.
 

TheParser

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"Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game."

I think the above sentence doesn't need "not," but is not incorrect with it. Right? I'm guessing that "not" serves as an emphasizer in the sentence.

Thanks.

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Good morning, jasmin.

(1) I have been thinking about this all day, and I can't find an authoritative answer in my books.

(2) So -- although I may be all wrong -- I am going to say that the second "not" IS correct.

(3) Here is my reasoning, which some people may label as lack of reasoning.

(4) Guys would not be smiling after losing a game.


(a) the prepositional phrase ("after losing a game") modifies the verb ("would be smiling") ("not" = adverb). Good sentence.


(5) After losing a game, guys would not be smiling.

(a) Same reasoning. Good sentence.

(6) Guys would not be smiling, especially after losing a game.

(a) I submit this is not grammatical.

(i) With the introduction of a comma and the word "especially," we now have a so-called parenthetical remark.

(a) As I understand it, a parenthetical remark has no grammatical connection with the main clause.

(i) If that is true, then what does "after losing a game" modify?

(a) I submit that it modifies the understood verb in the parenthetical remark.

(i) I submit that the "full" parenthetical remark is:

(Guys) (would) especially not (be) (smiling) after losing a game.

(6) I submit that "Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game" is a shortened version of:

Guys would not be smiling. + They would especially not be smiling after losing a game.

*****

TOM: What's wrong?

GEORGE: I do NOT like you anymore.

TOM: Why not?

GEORGE: (I) ESPECIALLY (do) NOT (like) (you) after telling me that big lie yesterday.

(I do not like you anymore, especially not after telling me that big lie yesterday.)
 

corum

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Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game.

Quirk et al. (1985; p. 787):
The scope of negation normally extends from the negative item itself to the end of the clause, but it need not include an end-placed adverbial.

1. Guys would not(1) be smiling, especially after losing a game. :tick:
2. Guys would not(1') be smiling, especially not(2) after losing a game. :tick:

Since #1 = #2, it follows:
scope of not(1) = be smiling, especially after losing a game
scope of not(1') = be smiling

Thus, the scope need not include an end-placed adverbial. My reasoning based on corpus-based data seems to be congruous with what Quirk says.
 
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Allen165

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Quirk et al. (1985; p. 787):


1. Guys would not(1) be smiling, especially after losing a game. :tick:
2. Guys would not(1') be smiling, especially not(2) after losing a game. :tick:

Since #1 = #2, it follows:
scope of not(1) = be smiling, especially after losing a game
scope of not(1') = be smiling

Thus, the scope need not include an end-placed adverbial. My reasoning based on corpus-based data seems to be congruous with what Quirk says.

I didn't think I'd encounter equations on an English language forum.
 

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I didn't think I'd encounter equations on an English language forum.
The more we understand language the more we are likely to describe it with equations.
Anyway, math is a form of language.
 

kfredson

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***** NOT A TEACHER *****

Good morning, jasmin.

(1) I have been thinking about this all day, and I can't find an authoritative answer in my books.

(2) So -- although I may be all wrong -- I am going to say that the second "not" IS correct.

(3) Here is my reasoning, which some people may label as lack of reasoning.

(4) Guys would not be smiling after losing a game.


(a) the prepositional phrase ("after losing a game") modifies the verb ("would be smiling") ("not" = adverb). Good sentence.


(5) After losing a game, guys would not be smiling.

(a) Same reasoning. Good sentence.

(6) Guys would not be smiling, especially after losing a game.

(a) I submit this is not grammatical.

(i) With the introduction of a comma and the word "especially," we now have a so-called parenthetical remark.

(a) As I understand it, a parenthetical remark has no grammatical connection with the main clause.

(i) If that is true, then what does "after losing a game" modify?

(a) I submit that it modifies the understood verb in the parenthetical remark.

(i) I submit that the "full" parenthetical remark is:

(Guys) (would) especially not (be) (smiling) after losing a game.

(6) I submit that "Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game" is a shortened version of:

Guys would not be smiling. + They would especially not be smiling after losing a game.

*****

TOM: What's wrong?

GEORGE: I do NOT like you anymore.

TOM: Why not?

GEORGE: (I) ESPECIALLY (do) NOT (like) (you) after telling me that big lie yesterday.

(I do not like you anymore, especially not after telling me that big lie yesterday.)

Good evening! I too have been considering this for many hours. It is not often that I would challenge the thinking of the much admired Parser.

In this case, however, I must disagree. I wish I could explain my reasons in an elegant or at least moderately effective way, but, alas, I cannot.

Here, however, are two reasons. They barely convince even me, but here goes my best, however feeble, effort.

The first reason may simply be a matter of style, but I must say that I fully grasp the meaning from the very beginning when I read, "Guys would not be smiling, especially after losing a game." There is no question in my mind what is meant, and my eye gracefully scans the sentence. Add the second "not," however, and my thought process kicks in. "Wait a minute," it tells me, "what exactly is the meaning here?" I believe I understand, but I am left vaguely troubled.

The second reason is slightly less subjective, and actually touches on grammar, if not logic.

As you point out, the sentence when rearranged is unquestionably grammatical: "After losing a game, guys would not be smiling." If we now add "especially," we get, "Especially after losing a game, guys would not be smiling." This is not a particularly elegant way to say it, but it does work and the meaning is clear. Would we not agree, however, that the addition of "not" would only add a note of confusion? I hesitate to write the resulting sentence, since it offends my sense of grammar, such as it is.

But here it is: "Especially not after losing a game, guys would not be smiling." No, my dear Parser, I cannot accept this. And, as I see it, the second "not" does not somehow become acceptable when we rearrange the sentence.

I'm afraid that I will have to stick with the old adage (OK, I just made it up): two nots do not make a right. At least, they don't when it comes to English.

I put this forward in the spirit of the our guide, the noble lady Grammatica, who inspires us from the Royal Portal of Chartres.* May she inspire one of our correspondents in ESL land to shed light on this troubling issue.

My best wishes for a lovely and grammatical weekend.

*Marginalia -- The Journal of the Medieval Reading Group at Cambridge
 

TheParser

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Kfredson,

Thanks a million for your great reply.

Pardon me for my tardy response: I am having computer problems, and that's on top of the fact that I am computer illiterate.

I am going to study your post very carefully.

Thanks again for your kindness.
 

TheParser

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Kfredson,

Good afternoon.

(1) You are correct: "Guys would not be smiling, especially after losing the game." = very natural English.

(2) And, of course, you are correct: Especially not after losing the game, guys would not be smiling. = a monstrosity!!!

(3) You said that rearranging the sentence would not make it acceptable.




(4) In my clumsy way, I was trying to suggest that at the end, preceded





by a comma, it might be parenthetical. That is, the "not" would not belong to the main clause (as it does in that monstrosity sentence) but would belong to an ellipted verb in the parenthetical element, IF (a big IF) it IS a parenthetical element.

(5) The bottom line:

People, I believe, will say something like:

I hate you. I will NOT ever speak to you again, especially NOT after what you did to me last week.

I get the sense that the second "not" is grammatically justified, but -- obviously -- I don't have the knowledge of grammar to show it.

As you said, maybe someone out there will share his/her insight.

Thanks again. (P.S. I'm working on another computer,and for some reason I can't see (or access) the "thank you" button.)
 

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I hate you. I will NOT ever speak to you again, especially NOT after what you did to me last week.

Nice example, I guess it comprises exactly Jasmin165´s original sentence problem, and it is somewhat clearer and contextualized.

Up to now I have the same opinion, the one wich Jasmin165 himself stated in his initial post. Namely that the second "NOT" is optional and emphasizes the speakers position. I can almost "hear" the speaker shouting the second "NOT".

However my knowledge of grammar is not enough to explain it any better.
 

TheParser

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Ymnisky,

Thank you so much for your kind reply. I can't see (or access) the
"thank you" button. If I ever get back to my "good" computer, I shall push the "thank you" button under your post.
 

TheParser

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Kfredson,

(1) Yes, it is I again.

(2) I have the latest news.

(3) I think that learners must be amused by how native speakers (including university professors) don't agree on how to analyze certain grammatical structures.

(4) No, that is the not the latest news.

(5) I have just received two communications from two highly knowledgable persons.

(a) I submitted this to them:

I will NOT ever talk to you again -- Not after what you said to me.

(I used a dash instead of a comma)

(b) Both of them opined that , in their opinion, it is a parenthetical element, thus very deserving of the "not."

(c) One of them said some writers might better bring out its parenthetical parentage by using a period:

I will NOT ever talk to you again. Not after what you said to me.


(6) The great thing about English (and this website) is that there are many ways to look at a sentence. We all have our points of view. You have always been very respectful of others' views. I, too, have been very respectful of all views, for I realize how little I know.

(7) I guess the people who read this thread will decide which answer they wish to adopt. No matter which one they choose, they will be "correct." This is a win-win for everyone.

Very respectfully yours, James

*****

I am amazed how you and the other teachers and moderators answer the most difficult questions day in and out. The learners' questions put me to shame, for I could not possibly answer most of them. As one poster in another thread said, some learners understand English grammar better than many native speakers.
 

Allen165

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Kfredson,

I am amazed how you and the other teachers and moderators answer the most difficult questions day in and out. The learners' questions put me to shame, for I could not possibly answer most of them. As one poster in another thread said, some learners understand English grammar better than many native speakers.

That's not surprising at all since non-native speakers study grammar to a greater extent than native speakers do, who are expected to know it. I can count on one hand the number of my high-school English classes that were devoted to grammar.
 

TheParser

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Yes, Jasmin, that is so true.
 

Allen165

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I contacted Pat O'Connnor of grammarphobia.com, and here's what she had to say:

The second "not" isn't ungrammatical, in my opinion. I would call it emphatic, an intensifier that lends emphasis to the initial negative element.

The sentence "Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game" could be considered a more economical way of saying, "Guys would not be smiling, [and they] especially [would ] not [be smiling] after losing a game."

We construct English sentences like this all the time. Of course, it is also grammatical, though less emphatic, to say, "Guys would not be smiling, especially after losing a game."
 

TheParser

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I contacted Pat O'Connnor of grammarphobia.com, and here's what she had to say:

The second "not" isn't ungrammatical, in my opinion. I would call it emphatic, an intensifier that lends emphasis to the initial negative element.

The sentence "Guys would not be smiling, especially not after losing a game" could be considered a more economical way of saying, "Guys would not be smiling, [and they] especially [would ] not [be smiling] after losing a game."

We construct English sentences like this all the time. Of course, it is also grammatical, though less emphatic, to say, "Guys would not be smiling, especially after losing a game."


***** NOT A TEACHER *****

A wonderful example of ellipsis. Thanks. Shall add it to my notes.
 

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That's not surprising at all since non-native speakers study grammar to a greater extent than native speakers do, who are expected to know it. I can count on one hand the number of my high-school English classes that were devoted to grammar.

That is also not necessarily true. Unfortunately the vast majority of ESL students which I know hate grammar. There are many ESL methods which claim to teach English with a minimum grammar based approach.

However, it is indeed a fact that in a place like this, devoted to the English language, we can find many high-level discussions involving both native and non-native speakers. Once more I take the opportunity to thank all UsingEnglish members for your contributions.
 
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