Diagramming Einstein Redux

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Frank Antonson

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I checked that Youtube video out -- as much as I could take of it.

I have watched some of his other work. He lost me as a fan as soon as I heard him use the word "verb" as a part of a sentence instead of "simple predicate" (a verb is a part of speech). If you REALLY want, I will go back and watch the rest of it.

Sorry that I stopped so soon on that video. Are you trying to suggest that you cannot have appositive that are other parts of sentences besides subjects?

I don't understand, comprehend, grasp it, wrap my mind around it.
 

corum

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My Sister Sandra is singing. :tick:
My sister is singing. :tick:
Sandra is singing. :tick.

All sentences are well-formed. But do they mean the same to you? Not necessarily. If I have one sister, then okay (the two apposed NP's cant have different referents), not otherwise.

Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty

Teaching should be such ... so that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty
 

Frank Antonson

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In a way, lucky for me that I have to go.

It will give me time to think about this.

I'll come back to the forum in about three hours.
 

corum

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Are you trying to suggest that you cannot have appositive that are other parts of sentences besides subjects?
.

No. I was trying to say that the traditional definition of apposition only employs phrases with nominal categorial status.

He lost me as a fan as soon as I heard him use the word "verb" as a part of a sentence instead of "simple predicate" (a verb is a part of speech)

Terminology that you are not used to. That is all. He still can be okay. IN TG this is how

My Sister Sandra is singing.

is parsed:

is = IP
singing = VP
singing = V

Do you like it? Inflectional phrase?! Pfew! That was my initial response. I have, however, become comfortable with it by now.
 

corum

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Do the (reduced) relative clause test work with 'such' here? Relative clauses modify nouns. Let us see what happens:

Teaching should be [such which is perceived so]. :?:

EDIT: Comes to mind relativizers can't have a pronoun as their antecedent. So my test gets me nowhere. So sad!
 
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Frank Antonson

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"No. I was trying to say that the traditional definition of apposition only employs phrases with nominal categorial status."

Well, I am back. I have been to an encounter which was special (and universal), but which does not pertain to our discussion.

Back to the "traditional definition of apposition" ... Apposition is not only nominal. I don't care who wants to disagree with this. One can have an appositive simple subject, simple predicate, predicate adjective, etc.

And I am still waiting to see if there is an appositive in that Einstein sentence -- or, at least to see it proven.
 

Frank Antonson

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Hello All,

I am wondering if someone could help me with a Reed-Kellogg diagram for the following Einstein quote:

[FONT=&quot]"[FONT=&quot]Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty.”[/FONT]

Thanks much in advance :-D[/FONT]

Catalata

Maybe the next thing to do is to expand that sentence into as many words as are required to have none of it elliptical.

"Teaching should be the kind of activity in which what is offered is considered to be a valuable gift instead of being considered a hard duty."
 

corum

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What about this?

Such should be teaching that...
What should teaching be like?
It should be such that what is offered...

1. Nouns don't answer the question "What it is like?" Adjectives do.
2. The that-clause completes the meaning of 'such' (adjective complement).
3. Do you think that 'such' carries meaning? Is it not another expletive, a grammatical filler?
4. In "Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty," the parts in bold are subject (= what is offered) complements.
 

Frank Antonson

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What about this?

Such should be teaching that...
What should teaching be like?
It should be such that what is offered...

1. Nouns don't answer the question "What it is like?" Adjectives do.
2. The that-clause completes the meaning of 'such' (adjective complement).
3. Do you think that 'such' carries meaning? Is it not another expletive, a grammatical filler?
4. In "Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty," the parts in bold are subject (= what is offered) complements.


All, well argued. I am almost convinced about some of it. I still don't have an analysis that satisfies me.
1. Nouns CAN answer the question "What?" Such should be teaching -- a joy.
2. This is the first time that I have heard of an "adjective complement". Interesting idea. I would like to see more examples.
3. Yes, I think that "such" carries meaning. It sort of means "that kind of a thing" But it seems to be closely related to "so". Its etymology might help.
4. As far as "gift" and "duty" being subject complements instead of objects of prepositions is concerned. I am okay with your interpretation. "As a fellow diagrammer, I can perceive it, as you do, as an answer"

Do you think that it is actually the main verb that is understood. "Teaching should be (performed) (in) such (a way) that... "Such...that" could then be considered a correlative conjunction like "so...that" (And the fact that those two correlative conjunctions don't quite mean the same thing is part of why I think that "such" carries some meaning.

I still don't see any appositive in this (I have begun to think rather awkwardly constructed) sentence.
 

Frank Antonson

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Do you think that Einstein might have said that in his native language, German, and then someone translated it?
 

corum

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Do you think that Einstein might have said that in his native language, German, and then someone translated it?

No, that is the original form, no translation.

adjective complement:
WordReference Forums - View Single Post - Adjective Complement

"Teaching should be such that what is offered is perceived as a valuable gift and not as a hard duty."
Do you think that it is actually the main verb that is understood.

27.gif
 

Frank Antonson

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Interesting about the "adjective complement". Neither House and Harman nor Moutoux acknowledge its existence.

I suppose that they would both simply say that the infinite is modifying the adjective.

Do you have any idea of how to Reed-Kellogg an "adjective complement"?

Regarding an understood main verb...I am not sure that is what is going on either, but I think it is a possible interpretation. But I still think that "such" is best understood as a pronoun.

I must look back at our original diagrams. I'll get back
 

Frank Antonson

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I don't think either one of us has this solved.

I think you are right that "so" is not understood. But, if the subordinate clause were attached the the pronoun "such", it would be acting adjectivally. The resulting diagram would be my preferred one still. "Such...that" becomes a pronoun with its own correlative conjunction built into it. If there must be an understood word (other than an indefinite antecedent for "such", then "such" can be thought of as modifying a predicate adjective and the rest of the sentence modifying "such". Let me try that...

I simply cannot see an appositive here. You cannot take "such" out and still have the sentence make sense.
 

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corum

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I guess 'adjective complement' is a European thing then. The concept is present in many European linguists' work:


Wait a minute! Biber is American!
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~biber/edu.htm

Swan, PEU, 2005, P15. says:
Many adjectives can be followed by 'complements' - words and expressions that 'complete' their meaning. Not all adjectives are followed by the same complement. ... Some adjectives can be followed by clauses.

Let us compare these:

1. I am glad that you are here.
2. Teaching is such that my heart often sinks.

According to Quirk et al., the that-clause in #1 is an adjectival complement. I can't provide motivation to think otherwise in the case of #2. Can you?

Do you have any idea of how to Reed-Kellogg an "adjective complement"?

Same as modifiers.

How about this:


WE should forget about appositives for good. ;-)
 
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Frank Antonson

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Well, we can't stop thinking about appositives FOR GOOD because they are very common and need to be recognized -- and they are a unique part of a sentence. Predication, complementation, modification, coordination, subordination, and apposition -- all quite distinct. Did I get all of the processes?

I am going to have to think about the adjective complement idea. I think I like it, but it is new to me.

Regarding the sentence at the beginning of this thread, I think there has been a slowly arriving epiphany (if that is possible). "Such...that" is like "so...that" (not when the latter means "in order to")-- with the difference that "such...that" is adjectival and wants to modify a noun whereas "so...that" is adverbial and wants to modify an adjective.

He had such strength that he did it.

He is so strong that he did it.

"Such" can also be a pronoun or an adjective on its own.

"So" can also be an adverb or a conjunction on its own.
 

Frank Antonson

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How (in what way) "glad"? What kind of "such"?

Those questions could be forced on your two sentences to prove that the first has an adverbial clause and the second an adjectival clause. But, make no mistake, I like the idea of adjective complement.

Forcing awkward questions comes along with Reed-Kellogg -- seemingly necessarily. But what is gained by the awkwardness is the simplicity of the diagramming language.
 

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I doubt (verb) whether he be right. :tick:
I am doubtful (adj.) whether he be right. :tick:

I doubt. :cross:
I am doubtful. :tick:

Whether he be right I doubt. :tick:
Whether he be right I am doubtful. :cross:

Interesting! Have you drawn some consequences?

We have empirical evidence that the verb 'doubt' subcategorizes an obligatory complement (a direct object), and the corresponding adjective an optional one. What is also interesting is the fact that the obligatory complement can be fronted but the optional complement can't.

What kind of "such"?
... and the second (clause is) an adjectival clause.

27.gif


Adverbial.
 
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Frank Antonson

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I doubt that he is right.
I am doubtful about his being is right.
About whether (or not) he is right I am uncertain.
That he is right I doubt.

I am not sure what you are getting at. The use of the subjunctive in those sentences of yours is so archaic that it is hard to tell if they would be acceptable in modern usage.
 

corum

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I doubt that he is right.
I am doubtful about his being is right.
About whether (or not) he is right I am uncertain.
That he is right I doubt.

I am not sure what you are getting at. The use of the subjunctive in those sentences of yours is so archaic that it is hard to tell if they would be acceptable in modern usage.

The subjunctive is not of issue here. Focus on the complementation of the two lexemes with different categorial statuses. ;-) The point I am trying to make is that not only the lexical category of verbs can subcategorize phrases. Adjectives can too! I was trying to draw a parallel -- and also some distinction -- between the two grammatical phenomena so that you can accept the idea of adjective complementation more readily. Got me now? :up:
 
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