subjunctive verb problem

[duiter]

Hi all,


I find '' If the planet be close to the sun, its speed increases ''

Subjunctive is for imagination or hope

but I think that the statement is the fact

why does the author use '' be '' instead of '' is ''

Many thanks

 

[RobertT]

learner

I believe in this context, "be" implies a possibility.

 

[Raymott]

Hi all,


I find '' If the planet be close to the sun, its speed increases ''

Subjunctive is for imagination or hope

but I think that the statement is the fact

why does the author use '' be '' instead of '' is ''

Many thanks

That's a strange sentence. Where did you find it?
I'd use 'is'. But the whole concept is weird. If we're talking about the known planets, we know they have elliptical orbits, so "When a/the planet is close to the sun, its speed increases."

 

[RobertT]

Perhaps, the speaker is discussing about the planet with its speed unknown.

Which implies that the speaker might be guessing the location of the planet relative to the sun and not its speed.

 

[bhaisahab]

I agree with Raymott, it's a strange sentence and I would also be interested to know where it comes from.

 

[Abstract Idea]

Hi all,


I find '' If the planet be close to the sun, its speed increases ''

Subjunctive is for imagination or hope

but I think that the statement is the fact

why does the author use '' be '' instead of '' is ''

Many thanks

Yes, as already stated by the other posters, this sentence does sound weird the way it is. I am also curious to know where it comes from.

However, this sentence does not have to be necessarily a fact. It certainly could state a possibility, a "imagination or hope" as you say or something similar. For instance:

- I think your solution (to some differential equation or something similar) is not correct.
- Why do you think so?
- If the planet were closer to the sun its speed should increase - your solution states the opposite!

A context with "is" is also easy to find:

- Let us check this solution: If a planet is closer to the sun its speed increases. That is easily confirmed by equation so and so. (The solution is OK.)

 

[Pedroski]

Simple: conservation of angular momentum. Sit on a revolving chair, make it rotate with your legs outstrechted, then pull them in. You will rotate faster!

be: present subjunctive of 'be', were: past subjunctive of 'be' English people will use 'is' in your sentence, even though that is, strictly speaking, incorrect. 'be' sounds funny, but with were it sounds fine.

 

[philo2009]

It is not incorrect, simply an archaism: all hypothetical if-clauses in English once governed the subjunctive. Present subjunctive forms were gradually supplanted by present indicatives (resulting in the contemporary 'first conditional' paradigm), while past subjunctives remained to express unreal(istic) conditionals.

 

[duiter]

Hi all,

It is from '' Essential Grammar for IELTS '' written by Hu Min and John Gordon, page 144

Teachers Needed in Nantong, Jiangsu Province, China -- see Hu Min's and John A Gordon' profiles

Essential Grammar For Ielts - Sách Vinabook.com

another examples from this book :

'' If any vehicle be found parked on these premises without written permission, it shall be towed away at the expense of the vehicle's owner ''

'' What ever be the reason for their action, we cannot tolerate such disloyalty ''

'' Whether it be to improve your verbal or social skills, the society provides both ''

Many thanks for all your explanation

 

[Pedroski]

I think we need to remember, that 'If the planet were closer to the sun its speed should increase' means moving a planet from its present orbit to an orbit closer to the central star. This would result in an increased angular velocity, a consequence of conservation of energy.

This is a fairly hypothetical scenario. It is not very often that planets are moved! Couch it in subjunctive terms.

Since for most English verbs, the present tense and the present subjunctive are identical, how will you know if one has supplanted the other?? As far as I can tell, your only clue will be if your sentence has tense. 'If you move a planet closer to the sun, its acceleration will increase.' To say 'move' is here the simple present is to give the sentence tense. But nothing has been moved!

 

[Raymott]

I think we need to remember, that 'If the planet were closer to the sun its speed should increase' means moving a planet from its present orbit to an orbit closer to the central star. This would result in an increased angular velocity, a consequence of conservation of energy.

This is a fairly hypothetical scenario. It is not very often that planets are moved! Couch it in subjunctive terms.

Since for most English verbs, the present tense and the present subjunctive are identical, how will you know if one has supplanted the other?? As far as I can tell, your only clue will be if your sentence has tense. 'If you move a planet closer to the sun, its acceleration will increase.' To say 'move' is here the simple present is to give the sentence tense. But nothing has been moved!

"If the planet be close to the sun, its speed increases"
It's still a bad sentence even if the subjunctive is right.

If you're talking about actually repositioning a planet:
"If Venus were closer to the sun, its speed would be greater."
Firstly, I think you need 'closer' if you're indicating a change of place - which you apparently are if you're referring to change of speed. I guess this could possibly happen if Venus were hit by an asteroid.
"If Venus [were] moved closer to the sun, its speed would increase." Right

If you're talking about the natural revolution around the sun:
"When Venus is close[r] to the sun, its speed increases."
This is still wrong because the speed doesn't change when the planet reaches a certain distance from the sun. The speed changes as a function of the distance.
"As Venus becomes closer to the sun, its speed increases." Right.

In any event, I can't imagine a native speaker saying the original sentence, no matter what they mean.

 

[Pedroski]

I agree: use closer. With 'were' it sounds fine. I said that earlier! Why you no listen?? Hearing aid battery run off out? But 'be' subjunctive is not wrong, in my humble opinion. If the planet be/were closer to the sun, its speed should increase.

Useless Info Dept.: as the orbit of the Earth is not completely circular, our speed changes. We are going fastest about two weeks after the winter solstice (closest to the sun). Average speed is 67 000 mph!

 

[Abstract Idea]

I think we need to remember, that 'If the planet were closer to the sun its speed should increase' means moving a planet from its present orbit to an orbit closer to the central star.

As one of your own later posts states, it is not necessary to change the planet's orbit. In a general orbit there are points at different distances from the Sun.

 

[Abstract Idea]

If you're talking about the natural revolution around the sun:
"When Venus is close[r] to the sun, its speed increases."
This is still wrong because the speed doesn't change when the planet reaches a certain distance from the sun. The speed changes as a function of the distance.
"As Venus becomes closer to the sun, its speed increases." Right.

I think you mean:
" ... the speed doesn't change abruptly (discontinuously) when ... "
and
" ... changes as a continuous function of distance."

Anyway, in my opinion, both versions:
"When Venus is closer to the sun, its speed increases."
"As Venus becomes closer to the sun, its speed increases."
are correct. The second one is somewhat clearer but I don't see any problem with the first.

In any event, I can't imagine a native speaker saying the original sentence, no matter what they mean.

Although I am not a native speaker I completely agree with you in this point.

 

[Raymott]

I agree: use closer. With 'were' it sounds fine. I said that earlier! Why you no listen??
Yes, I noted that. As usual, a response to a post is not necessarily a correction of that post, but sometimes an agreement or simply adding something.

But 'be' subjunctive is not wrong, in my humble opinion. If the planet be/were closer to the sun, its speed should increase.
It doesn't matter whether it's wrong or not. All I'm saying is that no native speaker would say it. And as it turns out, it was written by two Vietnamese guys.

R.

 

[Pedroski]

You're right of course!

 

[philo2009]

Since for most English verbs, the present tense and the present subjunctive are identical, how will you know if one has supplanted the other??

The third person singular of any verb differs in the present subjunctive (if she have, vs. if she has, etc.), as well as all persons of the verb 'be'.

 

[Pedroski]

You're right too, of course!

But what do you think of 'If the planet is close to the sun, it moves faster.' How do you read 'is' here?? The planet isn't close to the sun, or I wouldn't be saying this.

 

[philo2009]

I would interpret either contemporary

If the planet is close to the sun, it moves faster.

or its more archaic equivalent

If the planet be close to the sun, it moves faster.

as a zero conditional, used to enunciate a principle or general truth, where 'if' means little more than 'when(ever)' .

 

[Abstract Idea]

But what do you think of 'If the planet is close to the sun, it moves faster.' How do you read 'is' here?? The planet isn't close to the sun, or I wouldn't be saying this.

I would interpret
[...]
as a zero conditional, used to enunciate a principle or general truth, where 'if' means little more than 'when(ever)' .

I think maybe what Pedroski is referring to is that when the conjugated form of the verb coincides in the subjunctive or indicative mood it may be difficult to clearly decide which mood is being used. Whether or not that is what Pedroski means, this used to be also a doubt and discomfort of mine. However the language phenomenon occurs regardless of the fact that we call a verb mood subjunctive, indicative or whatever. I mean, the problem is in the model, not in language itself.

Anyway the inflection of verbs in English is poor compared to other languages - not just concerning this particular subjunctive issue. Is this an advantage or a disadvantage?