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    #1

    Arrow active or passive sense

    1. I hope you are fully recovered from your operation.
    2. We are camped in the field across the stream.

    I know the underlined are adjectives, but do they have active or passive senses?

    Thank you so much.

    By the way, could you tell me the meaning of the following statement?

    The explosion blew the cooker through the wall.

    Does it mean that the explosion made a hole in the wall by throwing the cooker out?

    Thank you again.
    Last edited by panicmonger; 30-Sep-2010 at 16:23.

  1. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: active or passive sense

    I hope you don't mind, but I'm going to add a question to yours.

    Your first one is a particle used as adjective - I don't consider it passive at all, nor is the second one passive.

    Your interpretation of the explosion is the same as mine, except that yours reads a bit like the intention was to put a hole in the wall, and the cooker going through it was the means to achieve that, instead of the hole in the wall resulting from the explosion. It's a subtle difference and probably not important.

    However, this is my question, which I never got a good answer to when I asked it somewhere else once.
    I know that "I am tired" is simple use of particle-as-adjective, as is "I was tired last night."
    Do you consider "I was tired out by that long hike" to be passive?
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

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    #3

    Re: active or passive sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    However, this is my question, which I never got a good answer to when I asked it somewhere else once.
    I know that "I am tired" is simple use of particle-as-adjective, as is "I was tired last night."
    Do you consider "I was tired out by that long hike" to be passive?
    Yes, I would consider "I was tired out by that long hike" passive because of the by-prepositional phrase at the end.

    Someone told me long time ago that a verb phrase is in the passive voice when its agent is mentioned through the by-prepositional phrase.

    If there is absence of the agent, then the verb is considered adjective.
    However, the problem is that the participial adjective can be active or passive.

    For example:

    active
    an advanced student = a student who has advanced

    passive
    a broken glass = a glass which has been broken

    But, if I say,
    I am fallen = I have fallen myself

    I am fallen by you = I have been fallen by you

    (fallen is a past participial adjective which has the perfect aspect. That's why the perfect tense is used when it is converted into a verb phrase)

    What do you say?
    Everyone is welcome to join in.

    By the way, a falling leaf means "a leaf that falls" or "a leaf that is falling"?
    There is much difference between "fall" and "is falling".
    Last edited by panicmonger; 01-Oct-2010 at 00:51.

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    #4

    Re: active or passive sense

    1. I hope you are fully recovered from your operation. Active. You got better, (I hope) You did something.

    If you didn't 'recover', but rather, got better, you were cured by the physicians. Passive.

    2. We are camped in the field across the stream. Acive. We have camped there. We did something.

    "I was tired out by that long hike" Passive, intrumentive. You became tired and the instrument that caused that was 'that long hike'

    I tired myself out on that long hike. Dative. *I was tired out by myself. *I tired myself out by John.

  2. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: active or passive sense

    Quote Originally Posted by panicmonger View Post
    Yes, I would consider "I was tired out by that long hike" passive because of the by-prepositional phrase at the end.

    Someone told me long time ago that a verb phrase is in the passive voice when its agent is mentioned through the by-prepositional phrase.

    If there is absence of the agent, then the verb is considered adjective.
    However, the problem is that the participial adjective can be active or passive.

    For example:

    active
    an advanced student = a student who has advanced

    passive
    a broken glass = a glass which has been broken

    But, if I say,
    I am fallen = I have fallen myself

    I am fallen by you = I have been fallen by you

    (fallen is a past participial adjective which has the perfect aspect. That's why the perfect tense is used when it is converted into a verb phrase)

    What do you say?
    Everyone is welcome to join in.

    By the way, a falling leaf means "a leaf that falls" or "a leaf that is falling"?
    There is much difference between "fall" and "is falling".
    I am fallen = I have fallen myself

    I am fallen by you = I have been fallen by you "I am fallen by you" and "I have been fallen by you" are both incorrect.

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    #6

    Re: active or passive sense

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    I am fallen by you = I have been fallen by you "I am fallen by you" and "I have been fallen by you" are both incorrect.
    Is the incorrectness because "fall" is an action verb but not state verb?
    How about these ones after I made corrections? Are they correct?

    1. I am often fallen by you when we are trying to get the same chair at the same time. (present repeated action or habitual action)

    2. I have been fallen by you so you have to pick me up now.

    3. I was fallen by you when you got up just now, now you have to pick me up.

    Thanks again.
    Last edited by panicmonger; 01-Oct-2010 at 12:47.

  3. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #7

    Re: active or passive sense

    Quote Originally Posted by panicmonger View Post
    Is the incorrectness due to the present tense of the verb?

    Will it be correct, if it has been changed into "I was fallen by you" or "I had been falled by you"?

    Thanks again.
    No, you can't be "fallen" by somebody or something. You can be "made to fall" or you can be "knocked down".

  4. konungursvia's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: active or passive sense

    Or, I believe, you can be felled by someone. Isn't that in Tolkien?

  5. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: active or passive sense

    Quote Originally Posted by konungursvia View Post
    Or, I believe, you can be felled by someone. Isn't that in Tolkien?
    Yes, that's true, "He was felled by a single blow" for example. You won't find it outside literature though.

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