[General] die on the vine

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vil

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Dear teachers,

Would you tell me whether I am right with my interpretation of the expression in bold in the following sentences?

The program for rebuilding the city died on the vine.

...the Governor's proposal to reduce the State debt was "dying on the vine". (Manchester Guardian Weekly)

die on the vine = to fail or collapse in the planning stages

Thank you for your efforts.

Regards,

V
 

riquecohen

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On the mark.
 
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birdeen's call

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The program for rebuilding the city died on the vine.

...the Governor's proposal to reduce the State debt was "dying on the vine". (Manchester Guardian Weekly)

die on the vine = to fail or collapse in the planning stages
I think it means something a little bit different. When something dies or withers on the vine, it is wasted because nobody cares about it. Not necessarily in the planning stages. If a grape withers on the vine, it's wasted - the earth has used its goods to create it and now nobody's going to benefit from it.
 

birdeen's call

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On the mark.
Do you mean "die on the mark"? I've never heard it, and judging from the google search it doesn't seem to be popular. Or did you mean something else?
 

vil

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wide of the mark = inaccurate, wrong

“on the mark” has to be opposite of the “wide of the mark”

on the mark and hit the mark, meaning "exactly right," as in He was right on the mark with that budget amendment, or Bill hit the mark when he accused Tom of lying
 

birdeen's call

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wide of the mark = inaccurate, wrong

“on the mark” has to be opposite of the “wide of the mark”

on the mark and hit the mark, meaning "exactly right," as in He was right on the mark with that budget amendment, or Bill hit the mark when he accused Tom of lying
Thank you, I get it now.

As I said above, I believe your interpretation is not on the mark. I hope somebody will comment on this.
 

Tullia

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I would say it is not necessarily failing at the planning stages. It could also refer to something planned and started, but not completed.


It is the lack of full completion that is for me the relevant factor, the failure to come fully to fruition. When something dies on the vine, it hasn't been picked and eaten (or turned into wine I suppose), which was the intended end outcome.


For something that fails at the planning stages and never gets started, we can also say things like "never left the drawing board" or "got stuck on the drawing board" or "never got off the page".
 

riquecohen

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I would say it is not necessarily failing at the planning stages. It could also refer to something planned and started, but not completed.


It is the lack of full completion that is for me the relevant factor, the failure to come fully to fruition. When something dies on the vine, it hasn't been picked and eaten (or turned into wine I suppose), which was the intended end outcome.


For something that fails at the planning stages and never gets started, we can also say things like "never left the drawing board" or "got stuck on the drawing board" or "never got off the page".
The governor of New Jersey has just killed a planned project for a train tunnel under the Hudson River. The project was never begun. Would you not say that it died on the vine?
 
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Tullia

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The governor of New Jersey has just killed a planned project for a train tunnel under the Hudson River. The project was never begun. Would you not say that it died on the vine?


I might say that, yes. As I said above, I think it can be used for projects halted at the planning stage; I just think it is not limited to only being used for that; it can also refer to projects where the practical stages are begun but not completed.

(The more I think about it, I might perhaps prefer to avoid it for things failing at the planning stages because there are other idioms available that more precisely refer to that, rather than have the possibility of "half completion" open as well. However, that doesn't make the usage of it to refer to things failing in the planning stages wrong!)
 

birdeen's call

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I think the idiom, besides the failure of fruition, connotes the potential of it. That's what, I suppose, can make people think of beginnings. It's sometimes hard to tell one from the other. Let's take the most obvious example (I'll let myself return to it): grapes on the vine wither. Withering of plants is not the beginning of their vegetation. But, if we think of it in terms of making wine, we'll see it as the very beginning of the process - which never came to an end. Nevertheless, I still believe the main connotation of "withering on the vine" here is the lack of interest which caused the grapes to wither. It's still the ripe grapes that we harvest, not unripe.

Another example. My country is now preparing to Euro 2012 and we have to create a lot of infrastructure. The works are at an advanced stage - but if the government stops giving money and building companies find other priorities, the project will die on the vine!
 
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Tullia

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I think the idiom, except the failure of fruition, connotes the potential of it. That's what, I suppose, can make people think of beginnings. It's sometimes hard to tell one from the other. Let's take the most obvious example (I'll let myself return to it): grapes on the vine wither. Withering of plants is not the beginning of their vegetation. But, if we think of it in the terms of making wine, we'll see it as the very beginning of the process - which never came to an end. Nevertheless, I still believe the main connotation of "withering on the vine" here is the lack of interest which caused the grapes to wither. It's still the ripe grapes that we harvest, not unripe.

Another example. My country is now preparing to Euro 2012 and we have to create a lot of infrastructure. The works are at an advanced stage - but if the government stops giving money and building companies find other priorities, the project will die in the vine!

I don't see a perfect correlation between your example and lack of interest. If I heard that a government had stopped funding something, I wouldn't automatically assume they had lost interest in it. It might still be something they wanted to do, but didn't have the money to - especially in these hard times!

Fruit too can wither for reasons other than lack of interest; lack of rain, lack of manpower to collect it in, disease...

I think if you said something had been left to die on the vine, then that would imply a lack of interest/an active choice not to pursue the project, but just saying that something died on the vine doesn't make the issue of why it died clear in the same way.
 

birdeen's call

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Eh, my post is not only ungrammatical :)-/) but also illogical...

A better word in place of "interest" would be "care". They're interchangable in Polish in such contexts... Maybe I'll just try to say clearly how I understand the idiom.

I think "to die on the vine" means to be wasted due to lack of care. I think the word "wasted" in my definition implies the potential of what dies on the vine. I also think things and processes can die on the vine even at the final stages of their production/development/course etc.

Would you agree?

PS: A word of explanation. Why do I think the lack of care is important here? It isn't explicit but that's what the history tells me. Leaving grapes to wither on the vine was (and maybe still is) considered a serious sin and people said things like this to accuse other people.
 
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vil

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The following excerpts from well-known dictionary are earmarked for too curious people who are dying with curiosity:

withers on the vine - definition of withers on the vine by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

wither on the vine and die on the vine

die on the vine = to fail or collapse in the planning stages or
to fail especially at an early stage through lack of support or enthusiasm

for all normal people “at an early stage” = “in the planning stages”
project in the planning stage = project on the initial stage of development


whither on the vine = to be ignored or neglected and thereby be wasted or
if something withers on the vine, it is destroyed very gradually, usually because no one does anything to help or support it
 

birdeen's call

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Three definitions from dictionaries:
To fail, as from lack of support, especially at an early stage. (Cambridge Idioms Dict.)
to be ignored or neglected and thereby be wasted. (McGraw-Hill Dict. of American Idioms)
To fail, as from lack of support, especially at an early stage (American Heritage)
McGraw gives an interesting example:
I hope I get a part in the play. I don't want to just die on the vine. Fred thinks he is withering on the vine because no one has chosen him.
PS: Sorry vil, I posted it before I saw you did that with yours.

PPS: Vil, you're being rude to me again.
 
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BobK

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The governor of New Jersey has just killed a planned project for a train tunnel under the Hudson River. The project was never begun. Would you not say that it died on the vine?

Tullia might, but I wouldn't - which is not to say that some people might use it that way. For me, if it's on the vine it grew but was not harvested. It might be starved of funds or attention, but at some previous stage it must have been thriving - like, say, tomatoes left on the vine to wither and become useless. (But I wouldn't use 'die on the vine', for the same reason. Things wither there, but when they die, it's time for another metaphor. ;-))

It's interesting, BC, that 'fruition' isn't derived from 'fruit' - they are both derived from the Latin verb fruor -ui -uctus sum meaning 'enjoy'. The fruit is that which is enjoyed, and when something 'comes to fruition' it arrives at a state when it can be enjoyed (in a way that doesn't have to involve fruit). ;-)

b
 
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Tdol

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I agree with Bob that killing the project directly is different. Withering/Dying on the vine is not an instant death me- a decline, a failure to develop fully, not shutting it down like that.


PS I am not sure if some things said here are meant as quips or digs, so could we remember to keep things friendly. Thanks
 
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