to be given / to have been given

[philo2009]

Would you please tell me what is the difference between these two sentences?

He was said to be given the prize last year.
He was said to have been given the prize last year.

As other contributors have pointed out, the first sentence is not acceptable, but may appear so by analogy with a possible sentence such as

He was said to be at the awards ceremony last year.*

It is essentially equivalent to saying during the year in question

*It is said that he is given the prize this year.

(Cf. sensible/possible

It is said that he is being given.../will be given.../has been given...)

N.B.
* Meaning, of course, that, at the time of the ceremony, someone claimed that he was there, as distinct from

He was said to have been at the awards ceremony last year.

where the ceremony predates the issuance of the report.

 

[corum]

And your idea of cocking a snook involves lying?

Yes, and Robin Hood had sticky fingers.

 

[corum]

Bhai, please explain in what way is this post helpful to you.

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/135152-given-have-been-given-2.html#post681528

I would like to learn when to press the button, but so far I have hit the buffers.

 

[bhaisahab]

Bhai, please explain in what way is this post helpful to you.

https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/135152-given-have-been-given-2.html#post681528

I would like to learn when to press the button, but so far I have hit the buffers.

It wasn't particularly helpful to me, but it was useful in pointing out to other users that you are being untruthful about your native language.

 

[corum]

because I can't trust you. 'bye.

That is not why we are here. We are here to rely on good answers to questions on grammar. Keep to the subject! ;-)

About trust:
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/ask-teacher/135188-there-any.html#post681331 :up:

 

[corum]

It wasn't particularly helpful to me, but it was useful in pointing out to other users that you are being untruthful about your native language.

Thanks for your answer! :up:

 

[corum]

The poster who did not thank you had absolutely no intention of offending you. Even after he explained this, you insisted that the tongue-lashing you had give him was deserved.

I will give you an example. I did a volunteer job in the UK in 2006. I worked there for one year without any financial compensation. I distributed leaflets door-to-door. It was hard work: I had to walk a lot, hostile weather, etc.
At the beginning, before my head was bitten off for the nth time, I had a penchant for walking across the grass in the front gardens. I had no intention whatsoever to do any harm with this, still, people were yelling at me like mad. You know, in my country it is no big deal when you do this. I have learnt my lesson: When in Rome, do as the Romans do. I was spending my time and energy to make people's lives in Africa easier and in your country, your folks biggest problem was that someone stepped on their neat grass. What do you think I felt those days? They were yelling from inside their warm home while I was soaking to the skin outdoors.
In retrospect, I can understand them. If I want to help the Africans, that is my business (although it should also be anyone else's). My cause must not affect their home, especially not when there is a way to spare their grass: me to walk around it. My negligence does not buy them new grass, and, in analogy with this, Mehrgan's tactlessness does not buy me happiness. Mehrgan should also walk around my grass, rather than tread/stomp on my feelings.
If you are tactless in life, you will, in all probability, one way or another, face the music.

 

[~Mav~]

I agree that the first sentence is wrong.

Of course it is! I mean, both Fivejedjon and bhaisahab deemed it wrong, and they are distinguished English teachers.:up::up: I - among others, including the OP - would only like to know, why:?:


My problem is this, no matter how hard I try, I cannot reconcile it with what we had already covered. Here's the currently relevant part of it:
(Ray in blue.)

Quote:
1.) He is believed to be drunk. (= They think he is drunk (now.))
Yes. We believe he is drunk.
2.) He was believed to be drunk. (Once they thought he was drunk then.)
Yes. We believed he was drunk
3.) He is believed to have been drunk. (Now they think that once he was drunk.)
Yes. We believe he was drunk.
4.) He was believed to have been drunk. (Once they believed he had been drunk.)
Yes. We believed he had been drunk.

My question is, to put it simply, don't Nathan's sentences (He was said to be given the prize last year. He was said to have been given the prize last year.) fall into the same category what we covered in my #2 and #4 example sentences:?: Can't the same what you told me then be applied to Nathan's question:?:

To elaborate it more:
I feel that this sentence, "He was said to be given the prize last year." falls into the same category as the following does, "He was believed to be drunk." (You agreed on this latter, "Yes. We believed he was drunk.")
So, my understanding was (and is, to be honest ), "He was said to be given the prize last year." = They said/we said he was given the prize. (Or maybe, "they gave him the prize", inasmuch as it makes more sense to put it in active voice instead of passive.) And this DOES make sense to me.:roll:

As for the second sentence (i.e. "He was said to have been given the prize last year."), there's no doubt; it's fine as it is. The Perfect Infinitive implies antecedence, just as the Past Perfect would. (E.g., They said he had been given the prize.)

Thanks very much for your answer, would you please tell me why the first one is not acceptable?

I'll have to think about that - and pray that somebody else comes in quickly with an answer.

Nobody seems to have accepted the challenge. ;-)

 

[5jj]

Thank you, Mav, for bringing us back to the original question. Unfortunately I cannot find Ray's original comments that you quoted (in blue in your last post), but I'll do what I can with another part of your post.

Mav: I feel that this sentence, "He was said to be given the prize last year." falls into the same category as the following does, "He was believed to be drunk."

5jj: the fundamental difference is that 'to be given' (passive) is different from 'to be drunk' (essentially the latter is BE + adjective).

They believe/say that he is drunk, :tick:
They believe/say that he is given the prize this year. :cross:
They believe/say that he is being given the prize this year:tick:
They believe/say that he is given the prize every year.:tick:

My initial response to Nathan's question was to write about static and dynamic verbs. However, I realised that what I was writing was full of holes, so I opted out, leaving to others - and I think Philo has got closer than anyone else so far.

I'll stop there before I dig further holes for myself. At least we are back on topic - I hope.

 

[~Mav~]

Thank you, Mav, for bringing us back to the original question.

Thank you very much for your response! :up: :up:

5jj: the fundamental difference is that 'to be given' (passive) is different from 'to be drunk' (essentially the latter is BE + adjective).

They believe/say that he is drunk, :tick:
They believe/say that he is given the prize this year. X
They believe/say that he is being given the prize this year:tick:
They believe/say that he is given the prize every year.:tick:

:banging my head on the table:

In light of this, would it be grammatical (regardless of how horrible it would sound) if someone said, "He was said to be being given the prize"? (I know it's awful, but still... )

 

[5jj]

In light of this, would it be grammatical (regardless of how horrible it would sound) if someone said, "He was said to be being given the prize"? (I know it's awful, but still... )

Let's work it through:

They are giving him the prize. OK - He is being given the prize. OK

People say that 'they' are giving him the prize. OK - People say that he is being given the prize. OK

People said that 'they' were giving him the prize. OK - People said that he was being given the prize. OK

It was said that 'they' were giving him the prize. OK - It was said that he was being given the prize. OK

He was said to be being given the prize. (reluctantly) OK

:banging my head on the table:

You are right - it's awful. I cannot conceive of it ever being said. However, if you insist on pushing me, and it seems that you do, I would have to admit that it's grammatically acceptable.

Now I am going away to shoot myself, Quietly. Discreetly.

 

[~Mav~]

However, if you insist on pushing me, and it seems that you do...

I was merely asking a question. ;-) I did not want you to feel 'pressurised' to reply, let alone to approve something you're not comfortable with. Thank you again. :up: (By the way, the reason why I was "banging my head on the table" was the sudden realisation of how obvious was what I had overlooked. In other words, your post was very enlightening.;-) I should have elaborated it a bit more, but I was distracted, and I thought that expression - in its pithiness - would work. )

Now I am going away to shoot myself, Quietly. Discreetly.

Please DON'T do that! :-( ;-)

 

[5jj]

I was merely asking a question. ;-) I did not want you to feel 'pressurised' to reply, let alone to approve something you're not comfortable with. I was not pressurised into anything - that was just a not very sucessful attempt at humour.


Please DON'T do that! :-( ;-) Too late. I've done it. This is my ghost responding

5

 

[philo2009]

Just a couple of points that may provide a little further clarification:

1. The difference between well-formed

[1] He was said/believed to be at the ceremony last year.

and unacceptable

[2] *He was said/believed to be given the prize at the ceremony last year.

lies in the difference of verbal type realized by 'be' in each: in [1] it is stative, the sentence as a whole corresponding to a putative (i.e. theoretically reconstructable) original statement

[1a] "It is said/believed that he is at the ceremony this year."

whereas in [2] it is dynamic**, corresponding to

[2a] *"It is said/believed that he is given the prize at the ceremony this year."

Dynamic present simple tense-forms, unlike statives, refer to habitual, not current, events, and therefore do not generally collocate with definite time adverbials such as 'this year'.

Were we to substitute an habitual time phrase, we would get an acceptable sentence, e.g.

[3] He was said/believed to be given the prize at the ceremony every year.

( < [3a] "It is said/believed that he is given the prize at the ceremony every year.")


2. If, however, working back from acceptable putative original

[4a] "It is said/believed that he is being given the prize at the ceremony this year."

we were to try to amend [2], we would get structurally dubious

[4] ?He was said/believed to be being given the prize at the ceremony last year.

, a type of sentence often termed 'infelicitous' (one theoretically generated by the rules of syntax, but, in practice, almost always avoided by natives).

N.B. ** I.e. because of the possibility of a sentence such as [4a] below, as compared with impossible

*...he is being at the ceremony this year.

 

[5jj]

I'll have to think about that - and pray that somebody else comes in quickly with an answer.;-)

Well, someone finally did. Thank you Philo.

 

[philo2009]

Well, someone finally did. Thank you Philo.

And at no charge!

 

[corum]

Compelling, senior Philo! Gracias muchas!

Dynamic present simple tense-forms, unlike statives, refer to habitual, not current, events, and therefore do not generally :up: collocate with definite time adverbials such as 'this year'.

The plane arrives (at 18:00) tomorrow. :tick:
It is said that he is given the prize at the ceremony this year. :tick: (to me)

 

[Nathan Mckane]

Thanks you all for your informative answers.

I think the main misunderstanding occures when all the non-native speakers of English, including me, mistake this sentence:

He was said to be given the prize.

with this one:

He was said that he would be given the prize.

And I think that the sentence 1 weirdly sounds fine to all the non-native speakers of English, including my teachers and the ones who think they have a deep grasp a the English language!

And I find that utterly bewildering.

 

[5jj]

Not to me. I think Philo has explained why.

 

[BobK]

...
In light of this, would it be grammatical (regardless of how horrible it would sound) if someone said, "He was said to be being given the prize"? (I know it's awful, but still... )

:up: - both grammatical and awful! This is fine too (grammatical and less awful):

"He was said to be being given £100 a week."

b