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    #1

    Hagar-Ishmael

    Was Ishmael rejected from the society or home because his mother, Hagar, was Abraham's concubine, Sarah's maid?

  1. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #2

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    You will find this story is told very differently depending on whether you are Muslim or Jewish/Christian.

    I don't believe that an English forum is the place to have a Bible study. If you have a passage from the Bible that you are having a hard time understanding, you can post it here and ask for help.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

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    #3

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    In a dictionary, "Ishmael" refers to the person who is rejected from the society or home. I couldn't understand Why it is Ishamel rather than others. So I looked it up Genesis, 16:1, the Old Testament. I'm so sorry I don't know completely yet. And I guess maybe it's because of f his mother, Hagar, who is Sarai's maid, is Egyptian, despised Sarai. But I'm not sure. So could you tell me the real reason.

  2. Barb_D's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    Here is one site that tells the story: The Story Of Hagar and Ishmael

    Here is another: HAGAR: Bible woman, slave of Sarah, concubine of Abraham, mother of Ishmael

    I have never heard "Ishmael" used to refer generically to someone rejected.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

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    #5

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    This is from Hobomok by Lydia Maria Francis Child (1824):
    The young man to whom we have so often referred, was a graduate at Oxford, and of no ordinary note in his native kingdom. He had known Mary before she left the mansion of her noble grandfather; and the remembrance of the little fairy just blushing into womanhood had proved powerful enough to draw the ambitiuous young lawyer from the fair hopes of distinction in England, to the wild and romantic scheme of estabilishing the Episcopal mitre in the forests of America. The state in which he found things on his arrival, induced him to abandon his favorite project; and prudence for awhile enabled him to conceal his high church principles. But the crown and the mitre were interwoven with every association of his heart, and in that hot-bed of argument, he found the attempt at neutrality was in vain. Notwithstanding the first settlers at Naumkeak had taken the liberty of nonconforming to the rules of their mother church, and to the estabilished regulation of the Plymouth elders, Mr. Brown soon found that they complained loudly of the spirit of the times. Mr. Conant in particular, stated that New England was likely to become "a cage for every unclean bird. A free stable-room and litter for all kinds of consciences." Such expressions extorted from Brown an involuntary reproach upon those false guides who had first taught men to wander from the true church, This was, of course, the watch-word of animosity; and from that time the young man was considered as Ishmael in the house of Abraham.
    And from The Buccaneers by Samuel Benjamin Helbert Judah (1827) (comments mine):
    Arnyte (Arnyte Leisler, son of Jacob Leisler) paused not a moment on the sight of the happy rout (young people playing at the Collect Pond, called De Kolck by the author), for the pleasures of others do but tend to mock the deserted creature of misery---like green fields and sunny glades, for which he longs in vain as he gazes through his prison bars, are to the the eyes of the desolate convict---like the voice of the healthful, in the ear of the sick man, bringing with its sound but a bitter comparison of the wretchedness of his poisoned lot; even so with a face jaudiced with evil, as if when he had cause for tears, it were unmeet (unsuitable) it should be catered, otherwise to any, doth he that is racked of heart, regard the wreathed smile of the gay, of the mingled shout and tread of revelry or merriment---for misfortune makes those at whom she darts her snakelike fangs, at once selfish and envious, turning to the bitterest gall all liberal and inborn virtue---for its victim deems in the madness of his trials, that on him alone the curse of Ishmael hath fallen, that all men's hands are against him, and he feels as if against all man he could gladly turn the besom of destruction.
    I'm sorry about the punctuation, it's not mine.
    Last edited by birdeen's call; 01-Dec-2010 at 15:55. Reason: typos

  3. BobK's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    Quote Originally Posted by Barb_D View Post
    ...
    I have never heard "Ishmael" used to refer generically to someone rejected.
    Nor have I. But someone shunned (because he is suspected of bringing Bad Luck) is a 'Jonah'. And a woman of loose morals is a 'Jezabel'. So Biblical names are sometimes used generically. Another example is 'Judas' (famously used at the concert where Bob Dylan 'went electric', by an audience member who felt betrayed): dylan judas . In fact, the generic 'Judas=traitor' has given rise to a collocation that refers to a Biblical incident: 'Judas kiss', defined by Wikipedia as "an act appearing to be an act of friendship, which is in fact harmful to the recipient." (Read more here: Kiss of Judas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    b

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    #7

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    Sure, and I wasn't saying that the definition is incorrect, only that I had never seen it used.

    Given that both of those citations are from the 1820s, I can only say that in current American usage, if you said "He was an Ishmael" no one would know (at least immediately) what you mean. I'd be more likely to think about Moby Dick!

    Judas and Jezebel, yes, and Jonah, though I'd have to think about that one a moment. Doubting Thomas is quite common.
    I'm not a teacher, but I write for a living. Please don't ask me about 2nd conditionals, but I'm a safe bet for what reads well in (American) English.

  5. BobK's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: Hagar-Ishmael

    :Yes. And I agree about Moby Dick too!

    B

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