[Vocabulary] terrible, dreadful, tragical

[Ashiuhto]

Please check out the following senteneces.
Are the words "terrible, dreadful, tragical, direful" suitable in each sentence? Which is better?
(1) A wrong policy is more terrible than corruption.
(2) A wrong policy is more dreadful than corruption.
(3) A wrong policy is more tragical than corruption.
(4) A wrong policy is more direful than corruption.

 

[Richard1]

Hi,

Never 3 nor 4, and neither 1 nor 2 sound particularly natural.

Perhaps 'harmful' is a better word but it really depends on the context and exactly what point you are trying to make.

Regards

 

[BobK]

:up: ... and they don't sound natural because 'wrong policy' is an unusual collocation. Here are the first ten 'wrong' +<noun>s in the BNC:

1 WRONG WAY 396
2 WRONG SIDE 282
3 WRONG PLACE 169
4 WRONG TIME 112
5 WRONG THING 94
6 WRONG DIRECTION 93
7 WRONG END 84
8 WRONG REASONS 62
9 WRONG MAN 53
10 WRONG THINGS 53

There are thousands more, which anyone interested enough can check at British National Corpus (BYU-BNC) . Perhaps 'policy' figures somewhere at the bottom of the list, with 1 or 2 hits in the entire corpus; these ten all have more than fifty. A policy may be 'unwise' or 'ill-chosen' or 'badly thought-out' or 'mistaken' or 'tyrannical' or 'undemocratic, or... there are thousands of possibilities; but 'wrong' - while possible - would be unsuitable in most contexts. ;-)

b

 

[Raymott]

:up: ... and they don't sound natural because 'wrong policy' is an unusual collocation. Here are the first ten 'wrong' +<noun>s in the BNC:


There are thousands more, which anyone interested enough can check at British National Corpus (BYU-BNC) . Perhaps 'policy' figures somewhere at the bottom of the list, with 1 or 2 hits in the entire corpus; these ten all have more than fifty. A policy may be 'unwise' or 'ill-chosen' or 'badly thought-out' or 'mistaken' or 'tyrannical' or 'undemocratic, or... there are thousands of possibilities; but 'wrong' - while possible - would be unsuitable in most contexts. ;-)

b

I think your argument is invalid.
All of those things you mention are more common than policies, therefore one would expect wrong examples of them to be more common as well.

Similarly, even if "white unicorn" comes in at number 2,300 for collocations with "white", we can't assume that unicorns are wrongly called "white".

Of course, the sounder way to argue is to look up the collocations with "policy" (or "unicorn"), and show how far down those lists "wrong policy" and "white unicorn" come.

 

[BobK]

...
Of course, the sounder way to argue is to look up the collocations with "policy" (or "unicorn"), and show how far down those lists "wrong policy" and "white unicorn" come.

Yep - I tried that, but couldn't work out the syntax for the database query, so settled for a poor alternative while I was at that site. ;-)

b

 

[apex2000]

(1) A wrong policy is more terrible than corruption.
(2) A wrong policy is more dreadful than corruption.
(3) A wrong policy is more tragical than corruption.
(4) A wrong policy is more direful than corruption.

We would tend to say - the wrong policy, or, an incorrect policy in such sentences (care with spelling, see yours).
Terrible and dreadful are not descriptions we would normally choose and then it should be tragic and dire - tragical is rarely used although tragically is well used, and direful appears in poetry but rarely in written/spoken English.

 

[Vidor]

not a teacher

Never say "tragical". The word is "tragic".

 

[BobK]

Re: not a teacher

But never say never. ;-)

b

 

[Tdol]

Re: not a teacher

It exists, but apart from the Tragical History of Dr Faustus, I can't think of many examples. ;-)

 

[Vidor]

not a teacher

It exists, but apart from the Tragical History of Dr Faustus, I can't think of many examples. ;-)

"Romeo and Juliet" was originally translated into English as "The Tragicall Historye of Romeus and Juliet".

It's just a word that you don't need to say. Like how it's not really WRONG to say "orientate", but you shouldn't say "orientate" when you can say "orient".

 

[apex2000]

Re: not a teacher

"Romeo and Juliet" was originally translated into English as "The Tragicall Historye of Romeus and Juliet".

It's just a word that you don't need to say. Like how it's not really WRONG to say "orientate", but you shouldn't say "orientate" when you can say "orient".

I'm afraid you are beginning to tie yourself into knots.
Never mind Shakespeare's time and style, as we have moved a long way since then in both spelling and usuage.

What we cannot do is muddle 'orient' (adj. eastern) with 'orientate' (vt. to orient, or, vi. to face the east).
Discover this in your dictionary.

 

[Vidor]

Re: not a teacher

I'm afraid you are beginning to tie yourself into knots.
Never mind Shakespeare's time and style, as we have moved a long way since then in both spelling and usuage.

What we cannot do is muddle 'orient' (adj. eastern) with 'orientate' (vt. to orient, or, vi. to face the east).
Discover this in your dictionary.

I can discover NPR

Orient, orientate — the latter is a needless variant of orient, which means "to gets one's bearings or sense of direction." Sadly the longer variant (a back-formation from orientation) seems especially common in British English...
So to avoid any further... um... disorientation, I asked NPR's reference librarian, Kee Malesky, for guidance:
I am disappointed to report that our American dictionaries show this usage (orientate) as acceptable... It is certainly a "needless variant," as our British friends realize. Since radio people are always trying to be efficient with language, it strikes me as an unnecessary waste of a half-second of airtime.

or English Plus

Orient as a verb means to "find direction" or "give direction." The noun form of this kind of orienting is orientation.
Sometimes people in their speech will form an imagined verb from orientation and say orientate. At best, orientate is a back-formation used humorously to make the speaker sound pompous. The correct word is the verb orient.

Incorrect: Melanie is helping me get orientated to the new job.
Correct: Melanie is helping me get oriented to the new job.
​

Orientate is more widely accepted in the U.K. than in the U.S.A., but it should be avoided in any formal or standard writing.

or thesaurus.com

use 'orient,' not ' orientate '

or check the dictionary as you suggest

b : to set or arrange in any determinate position especially in relation to the points of the compass c : to ascertain the bearings of

Or check another dictionary.

To locate or place in a particular relation to the points of the compass

To align or position with respect to a point or system of reference

To determine the bearings of.

To become adjusted or aligned.

In fact the use of "orient" to mean "east" or "face east" is more and more archaic. And "orientate" remains pointless.

 

[apex2000]

"In fact the use of "orient" to mean "east" or "face east" is more and more archaic. And "orientate" remains pointless."

You may be right in the US; it is sometimes said that we are a common people separated by the same language!

Orient as used in the UK is clear and in use. Everything oriental comes from the Orient, and this is not always with a capital O.
Orientate is very much in common use in the sense of deciding where we are (place or circumstance).

 

[Vidor]

It does seem that "orientate" is more acceptable in Britain, or at least that's what my cursory Internet search revealed.

Using "Orient" in its traditional noun sense is kind of frowned on in America these days. You're supposed to call it Asia.

 

[BobK]

Yep - I tried that, but couldn't work out the syntax for the database query, so settled for a poor alternative while I was at that site. ;-)

b

Got it sussed! Their abbreviation for 'any adjective' is [aj*]. Easy ;-)

Here are the first few (which all had more than 100 hits):

1 FOREIGN POLICY 928
2 SOCIAL POLICY 717
3 ECONOMIC POLICY 657
4 MONETARY POLICY 454
5 PUBLIC POLICY 446
6 AGRICULTURAL POLICY 244
7 REGIONAL POLICY 220
8 INDUSTRIAL POLICY 189
9 NEW POLICY 176
10 FISCAL POLICY 138
11 NATIONAL POLICY 136
12 ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY 123
13 GENERAL POLICY 110

...

Those totals add up to about two-thirds of the total for all occurences in the entire corpus (100 million words). The pair 'wrong policy' has two. A policy can indeed be wrong, but the adjective is not commonly collocated with 'policy' - especially not when it comes before the noun.

On a slightly festive note, there's a film commonly screened at some time over the holidays, which achieves a humorous effect with an unusually collocated 'wrong': The Wrong Trousers. ;-)

b