"She don't speak English"

Status
Not open for further replies.

leiito

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Slovenian
Home Country
Slovenia
Current Location
Slovenia
Just noticed a debate on "ain't", which a lot of non-native speakers seem to be very keen on using, perhaps on account of it often being used by various cool characters (usually African American and/or criminal) on TV a lot.

I agree of course that "ain't" should be avoided by non-native speakers. even if you use it in a common phrase like "it ain't over till it's over". It may be tempting to show off your familiarity with modern urban American slang, but it's just unnatural for a non-native to use "ain't" and makes it look like you have learned English in a ghetto.

A seemingly similar situation occurs with using the 3rd person of singular as if it were the 1st person, namely expressions like "She don't know...". This "new 3rd person English", again, appears to be especially popular with the African Americans, but more often than not, rather than being a novel way of using English, it betrays lack of education and verbal skills in general.

On the other hand, however, a language is a living phenomenon and one could make a case for "does/doesn't" in 3rd person singular being redundant since one is already expressing the "3rd personism" with the use of a name or personal pronoun.

In other words, who knows, perhaps a hundred years from now "does" and "doesn't" will be relegated to the side tracks of linguistic evolutionary process and saying "He don't speak English" will be the norm.

Same goes for the "s" in the 3rd person of present simple, as in, "he speaks English". This "s", as we all know, is a new form of old English "th" (as in "Methinks the lady doth protest too much"),which shows, by the way, that the 1st person also used to have an s (methinks), which later on was abandoned, obviously.

What do you think? is grammar (and spelling btw, why not spell it "enuff" instead of "enough"?) something set in stone, never to be changed, or should we take a pragmatic approach and support such changes that take nothing away from a language but make it more user-friendly for the non-native speakers?
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
She don't is found in various regions and varieties of English- you'll here it used in some regions in the UK; it's fairly common in London, for instance. I don't honestly see why it should be associated with a lack of education- it is non-standard, but plenty of educated speakers use non-standard forms. Care should be taken with non-standard forms as non-native speakers who say she don't will simply be regarded as making a mistake and not as using a non-standard regional form. Maybe the -s ending will disappear in the future- it doesn't seem to serve any real purpose as the other forms get by without any ending, but equally it might continue. Language is shaped by the speakers, who are the real owners. It's down to them, though I wouldn't be surprised to see non-native speakers being among the most vociferous supporters of it.

Grammar and spelling are definitely not set in stone- things change and the ease with which English can and does change is one of its strengths as a language for international communication.
 

leiito

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Slovenian
Home Country
Slovenia
Current Location
Slovenia
Tdol, I apologize for my ignorance, I had no idea "she don't" was so common, if non-standard, in the UK. My experience with native speakers is mostly from Canada and US and as far as as I could tell, using this particular non-standard form of English is rare among educated people of any race, though it might be getting fashionable with young people in big cities, they sometimes seem to try to sound almost black or it's just influence of the hip hop (sub)culture.
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
...
Same goes for the "s" in the 3rd person of present simple, as in, "he speaks English". This "s", as we all know, is a new form of old English "th" (as in "Methinks the lady doth protest too much"),which shows, by the way, that the 1st person also used to have an s (methinks), which later on was abandoned, obviously.

...

:down: 'Methinks' is just an example of a word changing the way it's used. In current speech, we can say 'it occurs to me'. In the case of 'methinks', the thinks part is 3rd person. Similarly it was possible to say in Shakespeare's time (and he didn't, incidentally, use Old English) - where we would say 'I don't like it' -'It likes me not'. The grammar of verbs of thinking, liking ... and other words dealing with states of mind, just changed.

A similar change happens across languages (both modern):

No me gusta la cerveza. - Spanish: the 'like' verb is in the 3rd person
Não gosto da cerveja - Portuguese: the 'like' verb is in the 1st person

:cheers:

b
 

leiito

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2010
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
Slovenian
Home Country
Slovenia
Current Location
Slovenia
Thanks. Always good to learn something new.
 

TheParser

VIP Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Leiito,

I have read that in the 19th century both in the United States and the United Kingdom,

many educated people regularly said, "She don't." I was shocked -- shocked!!! -- to learn

that our President Woodrow Wilson (1913 - 1921) reportedly would use such

sentences in private. In public, he "cleaned up" his language and used the correct

"doesn't." It is only my opinion that anyone today in the United States who regularly

said "She don't" would never get elected to an important office. People who speak that

way are considered uneducated and ignorant. It really grates on one's ears. That is

just the brutal reality.
 

orangutan

Member
Joined
May 2, 2009
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Great Britain
Current Location
Russian Federation
Just as a small footnote to this very useful post - the "thinks" in "methinks" is not actually from the verb "think" as we know it. It is from an obsolete word meaning "seems", which became pronounced and spelt the same way as "think" before eventually falling out of the language.

German until recently preserved the distinction (ich denke, mir dünkt), though the second of these is now obsolete as far as I know.

With "like", on the other hand, we have indeed a grammatical reanalysis of the same verb over time, from "the picture likes me" to "I like the picture". And not just in English but in many languages.



:down: 'Methinks' is just an example of a word changing the way it's used. In current speech, we can say 'it occurs to me'. In the case of 'methinks', the thinks part is 3rd person. Similarly it was possible to say in Shakespeare's time (and he didn't, incidentally, use Old English) - where we would say 'I don't like it' -'It likes me not'. The grammar of verbs of thinking, liking ... and other words dealing with states of mind, just changed.

A similar change happens across languages (both modern):

No me gusta la cerveza. - Spanish: the 'like' verb is in the 3rd person
Não gosto da cerveja - Portuguese: the 'like' verb is in the 1st person

:cheers:

b
 

Raymott

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Australia
Current Location
Australia
Hello Everyone,

Well I think using slangs is okay both for native and non native English speakers when you're in an informal environment i.e. with family or friends. However, in official matters liking writing documents, reports, official emails and chats, slangs should not be allowed and the same form of Grammar be maintained which is prevalent now. Changing it would mean thousand different versions of English. There should be a standard, a benchmark to evaluate against.
Does this standard or benchmark include such terms as 'slangs', 'non native', the capitalisation of 'grammar', the consideration of 'chats' as official communications, imprecise phrasing, and ungrammatical sentences such as your second one above?
 

Tdol

No Longer With Us (RIP)
Staff member
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Native Language
British English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
Japan
Not any longer ;-)
 

Vidor

Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2010
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
not a teacher

"Pain don't hurt."

--Patrick Swayze in Road House, 1989 American film set in a rough lower-class bar
 

Velo

Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
OP, your concerns remind me of discussions I've previously seen on "eboincs" and poor language skills. For example, the DEA wants to hire "ebonics" translators and some school districts are discussing teaching classes in ebonics, instead of standardized American English.

Without a doubt, language changes and evolves. One need only look at ye olde English for proof. In fact, new words such as "emoticon" are constantly being added to languages. However, I wonder at what point do we allow bad English to pass for standard or formal English.

There are many dialects, such as Cajun English, Southern English, even "l33t speak", but Standard English is the most common and without a mastery of it, one will sound uneducated or otherwise will not be able to communicate effectively. It's one to thing to use a lot of slang or local dialect around friends or in a friendly environment but it's another to say "I wants to go to dis here school becuz" on a college application.

In this poster's opinion, it's a gray area. In the case of "she dont got no english skills" it seems to be more a lack of education or understanding, rather than a language evolving naturally. However, in other cases sometimes slang or other words start to become far spread and meshed into the standard language that everyone uses them, no matter their education or background, such as "ain't" and pop culture references as as "do'h" which was recently added to the dictionary.

As for spelling, I leave you with these jokes:

A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling

For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz of ould doderez -- to riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.

Changes to the English Language

The European Commission has just announced an agreement whereby English will be the official language of the European Union rather than German, which was the other possibility. As part of the negotiations, Her Majesty's Government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement and has accepted a 5-year phase-in plan that would be known as "Euro-English".

In the first year, 's' will replace the soft 'c'. Sertainly,this will make the sivil servants jump with joy. The hard 'c' will be dropped in favor of the 'k'. This should klear up konfusion and keyboards kan have one less letter.

There will be growing publik enthusiasm in the sekond year when the troublesome 'ph' will be replased with the 'f'. This will make words like 'fotograf' 20% shorter!

In the 3rd year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expected to reach the stage where more komplikated changes are possible. Governments will enkorage the removal of double leters which have always ben a deterent to akurate speling. Also, al wil agre that the horible mes of the silent 'e' in the languag is disgrasful and it should go away.

By the 4th year, peopl wil be reseptiv to steps such as replasing 'th' with 'z' and 'w' wiz 'v'. During ze fifz year ze unesesary 'o' kan be dropd from vords kontaining 'ou' and similar changes vud of kurs be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.

After ze fifz yer ve vil hav a rali sensibl ritn styl. Zer vil be no mor trubl or difikultis and evriun vil find it ezi tu undrstand ech ozer.

Zen Z Drem Vil Finali Kum Tru!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top