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Jennifer Nevsky

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My students in ninth grade tend to write three simple sentences in a row. In essays on the play Antigone, they might write: Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death. i mark this wrong as run on sentences. Am I correct?
 

apex2000

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I say no because the connection is clear.
 

bhaisahab

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My students in ninth grade tend to write three simple sentences in a row. In essays on the play Antigone, they might write: Creon defied the gods, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death. I mark this wrong as a run on sentence. Am I correct?
Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death. This is OK as a sentence. You could make two sentences, "Creon defied the god. He forbade Antigone..." but to me it would be more stilted.
 
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Jennifer Nevsky

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I don't understand. Do you think it is a run on?
 

Jennifer Nevsky

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I think it is a run on. I absolutely think so. But so many students do it, I have become unsure. I am not asking for help in doing my work. I am trying to clarify my own knowledge of grammar. Perhaps I should not have asked the question as a teacher. I have marked it a run on for my work, but I am asking if I am right.
 

Barb_D

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It would be a run-on if there were only two actions. As it is, they are linking three as items in a list of actions/events.


I washed the dishes, I swept the floor, and I wiped down the counters. Not a run-on.
I washed the dishes, I swept the floor. Run-on.

(I use the serial/Oxford comma, but its omission doesn't change the main point.)
 

Abstract Idea

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----- Not an English teacher -----

Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death.

After reading the previous posts I am still in doubt about this point.
I would agree with Barb_D that it is not a run on sentence if
"Creon defied the god, forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death."
worked here. But it certainly does not. There is a lack of "parallelism" in such construction which tells me they are not simple items in a list of actions/events.

I may change my opinion but, up to now, I tend to agree with JN that the original sentence is a run on.
 

Barb_D

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And I take the opposite view.

Two actions by one person, separated by only a comma, IS a run-on.

A list of three independent clauses, each with their own subject and correct form of the verb, separated with a comma and then a conjunction is NOT a run-on.

I washed the dishes, swept the floor, and he wiped down the counters is NOT okay.
I washed the dishes, he swept the floor, and she wiped down the counters IS okay.
 

Abstract Idea

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And I take the opposite view.

Two actions by one person, separated by only a comma, IS a run-on.

A list of three independent clauses, each with their own subject and correct form of the verb, separated with a comma and then a conjunction is NOT a run-on.

I washed the dishes, swept the floor, and he wiped down the counters is NOT okay.
I washed the dishes, he swept the floor, and she wiped down the counters IS okay.

OK Barb_D, you convinced me. I agree now. Thanks for the explanation.
 

bhaisahab

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apex2000

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"Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death" is continous and a complete report of action and result. Perhaps you would see that better if 'he' was omitted:
'Creon defied the god, forbade Antigone..........'
Now consider this:
Creon defied the god, forbade Antigone from burying her brother and carried on with ruling Thebes.
That is a run on; my addition here is unrelated to what Creon did to Antigone.

That does not alter other suggestions made here to break up the sentence with a semicolon after god. I might prefer to use a colon.
 

TheParser

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My students in ninth grade tend to write three simple sentences in a row. In essays on the play Antigone, they might write: Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death. i mark this wrong as run on sentences. Am I correct?


***** NOT A TEACHER *****

************************


Ms. Nevsky,


(1) We non-teachers are allowed to post if we warn everybody at the

start, so that they have the option of skipping this post.

(2) I congratulate you on teaching ninth graders. That is quite a

"challenge."

(3) I am sure that you already know the following. I did not, until I

started doing some research for this post:

The current was swift, he could not swim to the shore.
(This is technically a "comma splice.")

The current was swift he could not swim to the shore.
(This is technically a "fused sentence" because it runs together with no punctuation.)


Credit for this info: Hodges & Whitten, Harbrace College Handbook
(New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1972), p. 33.

The famous usage expert Bryan A. Garner agrees that nowadays it is

just easier to use the term "run-on sentence" to describe a comma splice or fused sentence.

(P.S. You never know when you will get a very clever student who tries to

embarrass you by using those terms!!!)

*****

(4) As one of our presidents used to say: I feel your pain. If a student

asks you whether that sentence is a run-on sentence or not, you --

as the teacher -- have to say YES or NO.

(5) I most respectfully and humbly believe that you should say:

"Yes, it is a run-on sentence. Kindly rewrite it."

(6) To simplify matters, let's end that sentence with "brother":

Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother.

There are some people who could justify that sentence. But you

are dealing with ninth graders. They need a simple YES or NO. I think

most teachers would definitely classify that as a so-called run-on

sentence. I learned in my research that adults often have a sincere

difference of opinion. For example, the late William Safire wrote a

English usage column for The New York Times. He once said gave this

example of a run-on:

You don't do things right once in a while, you do them right all the time.

Another "expert" respectfully disagreed with him. That other expert

explained: The sentence is punctuated correctly with a comma because

there is a parallel between the two independent clauses.

My point: All the other posters have given you excellent advice. Their

advice is undoubtedly correct and should be followed. But I believe

that the sentence you cited should be classified as a run-on.

It is not something that you want ninth graders to write. When they

get older, that may be a different thing.

(Source for Mr. Safire's sentence: Let a Simile [not smile] Be Your

Umbrella (New York: Crown Publishers, 2001), p. 271)

(7) Finally, I found another example to consider. It

comes from Ms. Karen Elizabeth Gordon's The Transitive Vampire/A

Handbook of Grammar for the Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed

(New York: Times Books, 1984), p.112. She calls this a run-on:

One way to find a sweetheart is to put an ad in the paper,

another is to wait and see what the cat drags in.

I can well understand why many adults might find this sentence

acceptable, but the "rules" call it "wrong," and that is what

ninth graders should probably be taught.

THANK YOU
 

Barb_D

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With respect, Parser, we are not talking about two independent clauses joined with a comma, as you did in your post.

We are talking about three: the first two separated by a comma and the third with a conjunction. If the original had stopped where you did, it would be wrong. But it did not.It continued with a third and had a conjunction.

For the third time:
I did this, I did that. Run-on and wrong.
I did this, I did that, and I did that other thing. Okay.
 

Tdol

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I'm with Barb_D here- in BrE we can be more relaxed about run-on sentences but I can't see how this can be seen as one.
 

TheParser

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With respect, Parser, we are not talking about two independent clauses joined with a comma, as you did in your post.

We are talking about three: the first two separated by a comma and the third with a conjunction. If the original had stopped where you did, it would be wrong. But it did not.It continued with a third and had a conjunction.

For the third time:
I did this, I did that. Run-on and wrong.
I did this, I did that, and I did that other thing. Okay.


***** NOT A TEACHER *****
************************

Ms. Barbara,


As a professional writer, the moderator is, of course, correct.

We are, however, dealing with ninth graders who need a straight

YES or NO.

This is from Warriner's English Grammar and Composition
(New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1977), p. 228 says:

The run-on [my emphasis] sentence is sometimes used

effectively by experienced [my emphasis] writers , especially when

its parts are very [my emphasis] short:

I came, I saw, I conquered. -- Julius Caesar

Then that book, like many others for school children, explains that

semicolons would also have been correct: I came; I saw; I conquered.

I respectfully submit that ninth graders are not ready for such

fine distinctions. If they are told that the commas are correct, the

little darlings will probably generalize from that example, and start

writing everything like that. I very humbly submit that the sentence

given by the original poster is not the kind of sentence that we want

ninth graders to write.

THANK YOU
 

Abstract Idea

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Asking for a fourth ...

For the third time:
I did this, I did that. Run-on and wrong.
I did this, I did that, and I did that other thing. Okay.

Just to keep it closer to the original sentence:
I did this, I did that, and she did that other thing.
 

Raymott

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Asking for a fourth ...



Just to keep it closer to the original sentence:
I did this, I did that, and she did that other thing.
That's not analogous to the original which had only one comma, ie:
He did this, he did that and she was done to.
I agree with Jennifer. For me, the following are correct.
He did this; he did that and she was done to.
He did this, he did that, and she was done to.

But I tend to always use a serial comma, so maybe that's why the original sounds wrong. I would not like to argue that it's a run-on sentence since, for those who don't use serial commas, it's not. It's still not very elegant though, and I'd advise Jennifer to encourage students to avoid it for stylistic reasons.
 
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Barb_D

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. It's still not very elegant though, and I'd advise Jennifer to encourage students to avoid it for stylistic reasons.

I'm right with you on this advice!
 

bhaisahab

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"Creon defied the god, he forbade Antigone from burying her brother and she was sentenced to death."
My feeling about this is that it is fine as a sentence. It's not very elegant, it's not very well written and, in my view, it's not a good idea to try to precis that much of the story of Antigone into one or two sentences. However, it's not a "run-on" sentence IMHO.
 
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