[Grammar] To Ask or To Ask to Ask

[AlJapone]

Dear Teachers.

I would like to know how native speakers of English interpret a description given below. Please let me hear your opinions.

A asked Z to help him.
Then A asked B to do the same.

What did A ask B?

1. A asked B to help A.
2. A asked B to ask Z to help A.
3. A asked B to ask Z to help B.
Or any other ones?
Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[Barb_D]

I don't understand your question.

Peter has truck. Mary needs to move. Sam is friends with Peter. Mary knows Peter, but not as well as Sam does.

Mary asked Sam if he would ask Peter to help her pick up her new couch.

Alice is the boss. She knows that Bette has skills that will help Carla do a project. She will be out of the office, but she is with Darla right now. Alice asked Darla to ask Bette to help Carla.

Are those what you mean?

 

[SoothingDave]

1.

 

[AlJapone]

I don't understand your question.

I am sorry. Now I try to be more specific.
When you read two sentences given below, what do you think "to do the same" means?

A asked Z to help him.
Then A asked B to do the same.

Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[AlJapone]

1.

Thank you for your opinion, SoothingDave.
I myself feel it is 1; however, if Z stands for Zeus, I choose 2.

Can anybody come up with some context that makes 3 natural? Or is it inherently wrong?

Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[Barb_D]

Yes, to do the same means that A asked B to help him.

In sum, A asked Z and B to help him.

 

[AlJapone]

Yes, to do the same means that A asked B to help him.

In sum, A asked Z and B to help him.

Thank you for your reply.

How about this?
Al asked the god Zeus to help him.
Then Al asked Barbara to do the same.

I would really appreciate your imput, Barb_D, if by any chance, you are still reading this thread.

Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[bhaisahab]

Thank you for your reply.

How about this?
Al asked the god Zeus to help him.
Then Al asked Barbara to do the same.

I would really appreciate your imput, Barb_D, if by any chance, you are still reading this thread.

Best wishes,


AlJapone

Al asked Zeus to help him, then (perhaps thinking that she was more powerful than Zeus) he asked Barbara to help him too.

 

[Barb_D]

I'm powering up my lightning bolts while I type this.

 

[AlJapone]

I'm powering up my lightning bolts while I type this.

O! Please, Barb_D, allow this poor mortal to beg humbly your pardon.

Anyway, it looks like it is high time that I stopped sticking to my original idea, that is, my example could be interpreted in three ways.

To tell the truth, the reason I created this thread is that I had read a similar sentence by a native speaker with "to do the same" used in the 3rd meaning; it struck me really weird. But it was between two persons knowing compeletely what they were talking about.
So, it might have been an irregular case.

Thank you very much, Barb_D.
Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[5jj]

Can anybody come up with some context that makes 3 natural?
3. A asked B to ask Z to help B.

B: Can you help me print this document, please?
A: I think Z needs practice in helping people to print documents. Will you ask him to help you, please?

B asked A to help him. A replied that Z needed practice in helping people to print documents. He (A) asked B to ask Z to help him (B).

 

[AlJapone]

Hello, fivejedjon.

I am afraid that you missed the point of my post; I have noticed that my poor English is causing a great deal of misunderstaning among many teachers. This makes me cringe.

I wrote in my first post as follows:

A asked Z to help him.
Then A asked B to do the same.
What did A ask B?
1. A asked B to help A.
2. A asked B to ask Z to help A.
3. A asked B to ask Z to help B.

Then in the fifth, as follows:

I myself feel it is 1; however, if Z stands for Zeus, I choose 2.
Can anybody come up with some context that makes 3 natural? Or is it inherently wrong?

To put it differently, some context that makes it natural to interpret "A asked B to do the same" as "A asked B to ask Z to help B."

However, I now understand that only the first interpretation is acceptable.
Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[birdeen's call]

I don't understand why number two is a wrong interpretation.

Tom wanted a morning show on XYZ TV. He knew Dick had some say there and might be able to help. Tom was aware however that his chances were slim because Dick barely knew him. Fortunately, he remembered his old friend Harry, who was Dick's best man at his recent wedding. Tom's plan was this: he would send a letter to Dick, asking him for help. Then he would ask Harry to do the same to increase the chances.

 

[5jj]

Hello, fivejedjon.
I am afraid that you missed the point of my post; I have noticed that my poor English is causing a great deal of misunderstaning among many teachers. This makes me cringe.

It wasn't your English, Aljapone. I somehow started to read your post halfway through, so missed the point. My carelessness, not your poor English.

 

[AlJapone]

I don't understand why number two is a wrong interpretation.

*I am NOT a teacher*

Hello, birdeen's call. I must say I also don't know why.
All I know is that all the teachers who posted on this thread picked out #1, and #1 alone, and that no teachers rejected #2 and #3 based on grammaticality. Although this fact doesn't nessesarily negate possibility of #2 being acceptable, I think it counts for something.

So, I decided to accept it as a 'rule' for the time being while keeping in mind that it's merely a make-shift one.
That is all of what I meant when I said I understood.

Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[Barb_D]

As I reread (for about the tenth time) the original suggestions, in the end, all are possible, and real-world knowledge will help you with what is meant.

If it were A asked Z to help him and suggested B do the same, I would assume that A is suggesting that B ask Z to help B. But you don't usually ASK someone to ask another person to help (that someone) -- you suggest.

It's possible. A says, "Look, Barb, I know you're failing science, and you can't be on the volleyball team if you have a failing grade. So, I've asked Zeus to help tutor me in science, and I'm asking you to do the same, so we can both play on the team." -- A wants Barb to get help from Zeus. In that story, it's okay.

And here's another story:
Adam needs Zeus's help. Adam knows that Barb is closer friends with Zeus, and Zeus may respond to a request from Barb more readily than one from Adam. Adam asked Zeus for help, but also asks Barb to do the same, meaning ask Zeus to help Adam.

So all are possible.

But without knowing anything about who needs help with what and who knows who better and who would care about whether the other person got help, the default assumption is #1.

 

[AlJapone]

Barb_D, your words struck me as mightily as thunderbolt. Now I sense this thread that has been uselessly long and sterile turns into a fruitful one.
Thank you very much, Barb_D, birdeen's call, and all the people who posted here.

Best wishes,


AlJapone

 

[Barb_D]

One of Zeus's thunderbolts? ;-)

 

[AlJapone]

Yup. Still electrified!