[Grammar] Plural or Singular After 'Their'?

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AlJapone

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Dear Teachers,

While surfing around the web, I came across two noun phrases below:

dogs who put their head out the window
dogs who are permitted off their leashes

And I feel the words, head and leashes, are appropriately used in the singular and the plural respectively. But when I alter the noun phrases a little as shown below, somewhat to my own surprise, I find heads and leash more natural sounding to me.

dogs who poked their heads through the half opened door.
dogs who snap off their leash

I myself do not know why I feel this way nor if they are grammatically correct.
Please give me some explanation and rules for deciding which, the singular or the plural, to use after "their" and lead me to a better understanding in this matter.

Best wishes,


AlJapon
 

5jj

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Just be consistent:

dogs who put their heads out the window and dogs who are permitted off their leashes

or

dogs who put their head out the window and dogs who are permitted off their leash

Most native speakers would go for the plural, IMO.
 

TheParser

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Dear Teachers,

While surfing around the web, I came across two noun phrases below:

dogs who put their head out the window
dogs who are permitted off their leashes

And I feel the words, head and leashes, are appropriately used in the singular and the plural respectively. But when I alter the noun phrases a little as shown below, somewhat to my own surprise, I find heads and leash more natural sounding to me.

dogs who poked their heads through the half opened door.
dogs who snap off their leash


I myself do not know why I feel this way nor if they are grammatically correct.
Please give me some explanation and rules for deciding which, the singular or the plural, to use after "their" and lead me to a better understanding in this matter.

Best wishes,


AlJapon


If you type "distributive plurals" in this website's search box,

you will find some helpful threads. THANK YOU
 

AlJapone

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Just be consistent:

dogs who put their heads out the window and dogs who are permitted off their leashes

or

dogs who put their head out the window and dogs who are permitted off their leash

Most native speakers would go for the plural, IMO.

Hello fivejedjon,

It's my mistake not to have mentioned those two quotes are from two separate articles. I apologize for it. I understand your opinion is as follows:
As long as we use the plural and the singular consistantly in one context, both are all rigit. But it is better to stick to the plural in most cases.
Have I understood your post rightly?

Best wishes,

From NYTimes.com

May 19, 2010, 11:36 AM
Pets and Distracted Driving
By TARA PARKER-POPE
(...)
FROM TPP : You raise two interesting points. I don't have the answer about staying on the floor, but it does seem safer than sitting on the seat in front of the airbag. And dogs who put their head out the window (and owners who let them) also make me cringe. You also worry about a swerve or unexpected accident - it would be terrible for the dog.
(...)


Editorial Observer; When DogsAre More Important Than People
By BRENT STAPLES
Published: September 10, 2000
(...)In recent years, these tranquil mornings have been too often disrupted by snarling dogs who are permitted off their leashes in the early morning during what the park system refers to as "courtesy hours."(...)
 
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AlJapone

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If you type "distributive plurals" in this website's search box,

you will find some helpful threads. THANK YOU

hello TheParser,

Thank you for your kind suggestion.
I will read them.

Best wishes,


AlJapone
 

Barb_D

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I never had a phrase for that before: distributive plurals. Thanks for that.

The truth is, Al, natives will use this almost interchangeably and certainly inconsistently.

In most cases, it doesn't matter.

Each dog has one head. Each dog has one leash. Whether you say head/leash or heads/leashes, it won't matter.

Problems arise when it's possible you meant that each person (or dog) had only one of something, but the real-world situation is that they could have several, or at least two.

The girls raised their hands -- probably one hand, like a student answering a question, but maybe both, like people hoping to catch something desirable being thrown to the crowd. Context may tell you which.

And even then, in most cases, it doesn't matter. If what happened next, while the girls stood with their hands in the air, was that a 4-meter, fire-breathing dragon ripped off the roof, ate the wedding cake and the groom, and swatted the band off the dias with his tail, does it really matter if they had one hand up or two?
 

5jj

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It's my mistake not to have mentioned those two quotes are from two separate articles. I apologize for it.
No problem. I thought they probably were. My 'be consistent' was advice for the future, not criticism of what you'd written.


I understand your opinion is as follows: As long as we use the plural and the singular consistantly in one context, both are all right. But it is better to stick to the plural in most cases. Have I understood your post rightly?
Indeed you have.
5
 

AlJapone

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Thank you, Barb_D, for your opinion and, as always, fun illustrations of usage.

The truth is, Al, natives will use this almost interchangeably and certainly inconsistently.
I am not at all sure whether I should agree or not. My biggest problem is that I do not know the reasons while, between the plural and the singular, I myself certainly prefer one in some cases and the other in other cases. Now I suspect that there are certain 'unknown known' rules on this distributive plurals thing. (i.e. consciously unknown yet unconsciously known rules rather than 'unknown unknown')

Here I quote a bit from one of TheParser's posts on an old thread, which I find interesting in that the idea given there explains my preferance.

TheParser said:
(5) Finally, let me share something from an American judge who wrote:
Ostriches when frightened bury their head in the sand.(here, omission by AlJapone)

1. He said that there is no easy rule in English. (True!!!)
2. He said that it depends on the mental picture that you have in mind.
3. If you think a group is doing something together, then use the plural:(omission by AlJapone)
4. If (in your mind) some persons or animals are not acting together at the same time, then use the singular:(omission by AlJapone)
So when you say: "Ostriches hide their head," that is just a short way of saying: "An ostrich hides its head."

I read one thread, where fivejedjon stated he also prefered the singular in some particular cases (if I did not misunderstand his words.)

Best wishes,


AlJapone
 
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5jj

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I read one thread, where fivejedjon stated he also prefered the singular in some particular cases (if I did not misunderstand his words.)
Whenever, as a child, I protested that my parents would not allow me to do things that they did, I was told, "Don't do as I do, do as I say!". Bear those words in mind when I say again, 'Be consistent'. ;-)

I can't locate the thread you mention. I suspect that I was talking about a slightly different area. However, if you find it, and it shows that I have been inconsisent, please let me know. It will be interesting to see if I can justify myself.
 

AlJapone

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I can't locate the thread you mention. I suspect that I was talking about a slightly different area. However, if you find it, and it shows that I have been inconsisent, please let me know. It will be interesting to see if I can justify myself.

From the thread, We have a nose/We have noses

We would say this mainly in such utterances as: 'we (humans) have a nose, whilst elephants have a trunk'. Even here we could use plurals.

[3. What about the following cases?
1) We have a nose.]
No, except as I noted above.

Whenever, as a child, I protested that my parents would not allow me to do things that they did, I was told, "Don't do as I do, do as I say!". Bear those words in mind when I say again, 'Be consistent'. ;-)

I'm still a baby. ;-)

Al
 

5jj

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From the thread, We have a nose/We have noses

(5jj:) We would say this mainly in such utterances as: 'we (humans) have a nose, whilst elephants have a trunk'. Even here we could use plurals.
Thank you.
I heaved a sigh of relief when I saw it - I have been consistent. In that thread I was trying to produce an example in which a singular form was possible, and came up with the utterance above. However, I added the words I have now underlined.

So, I can stick with: As long as we use the plural and the singular consistantly in one context, both are right. But it is better to stick to the plural in most cases.

That's my opinion. Barb_ D's is slightly different: natives will use this almost interchangeably and certainly inconsistently.

I am keener on consistency than Barb, but as she also says: In most cases, it doesn't matter.
 

AlJapone

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So, I can stick with: As long as we use the plural and the singular consistantly in one context, both are right. But it is better to stick to the plural in most cases.
Now I decided I should do as you said notwithstanding my feelings. I thank you again for your advice.

Best wishes,


AlJapone
 
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MrPedantic

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You raise an interesting question, Al J. I would say that the difference you detect is one of focus:

1. dogs who put their head out the window

The likely context/focus is one dog, putting its head out of one car window. The occasions when you might see this would be separate. Thus "head" seems appropriate ("heads" might suggest a back-seat Cerberus).

2. dogs who are permitted off their leashes

The likely context here is e.g. a park, where you might see several dogs at once off their leashes. Thus the plural seems appropriate.

3. dogs who poked their heads through the half opened door.

This suggests to me two or more dogs; perhaps one of those houses where several terriers stick their muzzles through the gap, as the door opens.

4. dogs who snap off their leash

As with #1, though the phrase deals with a plurality of cases, the focus is on one dog and one leash. Thus the singular seems appropriate.

Best wishes,

MrP
 

Barb_D

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I"m not ADVOCATING inconsistency! I love parallelism and consistency.

I"m just observing that we don't always do so.
 
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