Object of the preposition

Status
Not open for further replies.

sattlesey

New member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Is it proper to say, "School is closed for Friday, January 21, 2011." To me it seems incorrect because "Friday," the object of the preposition seems, at best, awkward and, at worst, incorrect. You close FOR a holiday, or you close FOR renovations; you don't close FOR Friday. Am I correct?
 

SoothingDave

VIP Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2009
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I would say school is closed on Friday, not for Friday.
 

engee30

Key Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
England
Is it proper to say, "School is closed for Friday, January 21, 2011." To me it seems incorrect because "Friday," the object of the preposition seems, at best, awkward and, at worst, incorrect. You close FOR a holiday, or you close FOR renovations; you don't close FOR Friday. Am I correct?

♥♦♣♠ NOT A TEACHER ♥♦♣♠

To me, the sentence reads fine. Just as you'd be saying School is closed for the next 24 hours/two weeks. For = for a particular period of time.
 

sattlesey

New member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
So it's one for and one against. That leaves me right where I was. :lol: Thanks for your responses.
 

Raymott

VIP Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2008
Member Type
Academic
Native Language
English
Home Country
Australia
Current Location
Australia
In AusE, and I suspect everywhere else in English-speaking world, we'd say, "on Friday".
 

Rover_KE

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
England
Current Location
England
Soothing Dave and Raymott are right.

Only on is correct.

Engee should delete his wrong answer.

Rover
 

engee30

Key Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
England
Engee should delete his wrong answer.

Rover

In that case, they should do the same in the BNC - my answer was based on their example:
[...] Theatres closed: Operating theatres were closed at Bishop Auckland Hospital at the weekend. All emergency cases needing surgery were taken instead to Darlington Memorial Hospital. A hospital spokesman said: " The theatres were closed for Saturday and Sunday for routine maintenance and refurbishment. [...]
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
In that case, they should do the same in the BNC - my answer was based on their example:
Funny old world, isn't it?

When I (on another thread) use corpora in support of my argument, you can simply ignore them. When a corpus appears to support your case, it appears to become an authority.

We have a native speaker of AmE writing, "I would say "on"; we have a native speaker of AusE writing, "In AusE, and I suspect everywhere else in English-speaking world, we'd say, "on Friday"; and we have a native speaker of BrE writing, " Only on is correct."

I would not go a far as Rover and state categorically that you are wrong, but I agree with the feeling that 'on' is far and away the more acceptable preposition for native speakers.

You, I, and all the members I have named thus far can think of occasions when a case can be made for 'for' being acceptable. However, as a straightforward answer to sattlesey's original question, SoothingDave's response is one to which few native speakers would object; it is also the most useful one for learners.

As in other threads, you, a native speaker of Polish, appear to think you know better than native speakers.

I will add, before anyone accuses me of smugly dismissing non-native speakers, that I feel strongly that informed non-native speakers have made invaluable contributions to the understanding of English grammar. Those of us who read in the field have learnt a lot from Christophersen, Declerck, Jespersen, Kruisinga, Poutsma, Sandved, Schibsbye and many others. In UsingEnglish.com, Birdeen's Call (to name but one) has brought wisdom and insight to many threads.

Your contributions in the last few weeks have not yet encouraged me to think that your words carry as much weight as the others I have mentioned.
 

engee30

Key Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
England
Funny old world, isn't it?

When I (on another thread) use corpora in support of my argument, you can simply ignore them. When a corpus appears to support your case, it appears to become an authority.

Believe or not, fivejedjon, but I did that on purpose, with you in mind - first, I did a search for closed + [nn*]; then, when I had found one example on the BNC, I wrote the words of my opinion, biased actually by the corpus example; finally, I did the copy-paste thing of the example and waited for your reaction. And, as it happens, you cannot fully trust such devices as the BNC and the like, for you can always be told by some that it is wrong to say or write like that. Funny, innit? ;-)

We have a native speaker of AmE writing, "I would say "on"; we have a native speaker of AusE writing, "In AusE, and I suspect everywhere else in English-speaking world, we'd say, "on Friday"; and we have a native speaker of BrE writing, " Only on is correct."

Since the BNC and similar corpora are based on the English language and its everyday use, how can one be sure that what s/he can find on the datebase is wrong or right? I do realize that natives seem to always be right, or are they not, sometimes?

As in other threads, you, a native speaker of Polish, appear to think you know better than native speakers.

That's your own opinion, and I respect it. You must, however, take into consideration that most of my opinions presented on the forum are based on different sources I am in possession of, most of which are published by the foremost publishers (I reckon you know which ones I am referring to now).

Your contributions in the last few weeks have not yet encouraged me to think that your words carry as much weight as the others I have mentioned.

Time will tell whether you've been right or wrong about me. Judging a book by its cover is never a good idea to have.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Believe or not, fivejedjon, but I did that on purpose, with you in mind
I feel that the idea behind 'Ask a Teacher' is for learners to be assisted. If you wish to set up points simply to see how I react, then I would suggest that Private Messages are the way to do this.
 

engee30

Key Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
Polish
Home Country
Poland
Current Location
England
I feel that the idea behind 'Ask a Teacher' is for learners to be assisted. If you wish to set up points simply to see how I react, then I would suggest that Private Messages are the way to do this.

No worries - I did that on this particular occasion, and won't be doing so at any other time in the future. :up:

Incidentally, I never thought that corpora used and cited by a non-native is less valuable than that used and cited by a native, which I believe is a shame. :cry:
 

sattlesey

New member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Member Type
Other
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Hmmm. Well, this certainly got interesting. Thanks all for your responses. I carried a double major of elementary ed. and English but went into elementary ed. and haven't used my English in many years. I was sure that using "for" in this instance, was on the cusp of proper syntax and as I said, was probably awkward at best. Thanks again.
 

Bamako2

Member
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Bengali; Bangla
Home Country
Armenia
Current Location
Argentina
Engee should delete his wrong answer.

Rover

That is presumptuous and not the least bit diplomatic. Should he also be bound and gagged, in your opinion, and removed without a trace off the face of the earth just because he so much as dare stand by what is not to your taste?


Soothing Dave and Raymott are right.

Are you an arbitrator? :) They agree with me, which means they are unquestionably right. Amusing attitude. Honestly, this is most ridiculous, unrefined, and uncultured.

Incidentally, I never thought that corpora used and cited by a non-native is less valuable than that used and cited by a native, which I believe is a shame

Futile practice, Eng. Why do you want to convince them?

School is closed for Friday, January 21, 2011.

It is a well-formed sentence, in my opinion. Statistics speak about frequency in usage. Does infrequent necessarily mean ill-formed? I doubt it.

11. for:
during the continuance of: for a long time.
dictionary.reference.com
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Incidentally, I never thought that corpora used and cited by a non-native is less valuable than that used and cited by a native,
As far as I know, nobody in this forum has suggested this. I certainly haven't.
Since the BNC and similar corpora are based on the English language and its everyday use, how can one be sure that what s/he can find on the datebase is wrong or right?
We can't be sure.
Corpora show only what people actually say and write.
My own view is that the greater the number of citations for any structure, the more justified I feel in believing that it is acceptable, - even if I do not personally like or use the construction. However, even here, caution is needed; a large number of citations for ain't, for example, would not convince most people that it was generally acceptable in many situations.

I do realize that natives seem to always be right, or are they not, sometimes?
Some non-native speakers have a better understanding of the workings of English grammar than some native speakers. Some non-natives speak an English that is technically more 'correct' than some natives. Ironically, it is just that 'purity' that shows that they are not native speakers.

In general, however, reasonably educated native speakers of any language are better able to say what can and cannot be said in any given situation than a non-native speaker.

If I heard a German use a construction that my study of German grammar told me was 'incorrect', I would be in no hurry to correct the speaker. I might ask him/her if the usage was normal, and I might check with other educated speakers and with other books on grammar. My own experience of writers on English grammar inventing 'rules' would make me very hesitant to think that I knew more about another language than a native speaker.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top