Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 53
  1. Banned
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Ireland
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jan 2011
    • Posts: 80
    #1

    Concerning past participles\verbs:

    With regard to the 'sentence' below, is remembered a past participle or a finite verb? Can a participle only be considered a finite verb or, perhaps more correctly put, only be considered part of a finite verb phrase when it has a helping verb, or verb phrase, as part of, e.g. 'is' remembered; 'will have been' remembered; 'was' remembered, etc?

    "Anyway, what follows are hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July and which began, for me, with taunts for the Mancunian about his fantastically broad accent."

    In other words, in the strict grammatical sense, does the word remembered here need a helping verb\verb phrase to render it finite? And if that is the case, then is it correct to regard the above sentence, as it stands, as grammatically incorrect (in terms of subject-verb agreement)?
    Last edited by JIM1984; 28-Jan-2011 at 09:53.

  2. 5jj's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Oct 2010
    • Posts: 28,134
    #2

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    Remembered cannot be a finite verb in your example - it has no grammatical subject. The finte verb is underlined in:

    I remembered his name.
    I have remembered his name.

  3. Banned
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Ireland
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jan 2011
    • Posts: 80
    #3

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    [QUOTE=fivejedjon;708305]Remembered cannot be a finite verb in your example - it has no grammatical subject. The finte verb is underlined in:

    I remembered his name.
    I have remembered his name.[ /QUOTE]

    [Am I correct to say that 'hostilities' in my 'sentence' is the subject? But that for it to be a grammatical subject , in other words for the 'sentence' to be rendered grammatically correct, it would need a helping verb, or verb phrase, such as '...hostilities which are remembered ...?']
    Last edited by JIM1984; 28-Jan-2011 at 09:56.

  4. Raymott's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Australia
      • Current Location:
      • Australia

    • Join Date: Jun 2008
    • Posts: 24,091
    #4

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    [QUOTE=JIM1984;708331]
    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    Remembered cannot be a finite verb in your example - it has no grammatical subject. The finte verb is underlined in:

    I remembered his name.
    I have remembered his name.[ /QUOTE]

    [Am I correct to say that 'hostilities' in my 'sentence' is the subject? But for it to be a grammatical subject , in other words for the 'sentence' to be rendered grammatically correct,it would need a helping verb, or verb phrase, such '...hostilities which are remembered ...?']
    Why do you keep putting 'sentence' in quotes? It is a grammatically correct sentence.
    Subject: hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July and which began, for me, with taunts for the Mancunian about his fantastically broad accent
    Verb: are
    Complement: what follows, [anyway].
    Inserting "which are" before 'remembered' doesn't change the above full subject; and it doesn't change the simple subject 'hostilities'.

  5. Banned
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Ireland
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jan 2011
    • Posts: 80
    #5

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    [QUOTE=Raymott;708341]
    Quote Originally Posted by JIM1984 View Post
    Why do you keep putting 'sentence' in quotes? It is a grammatically correct sentence.
    Subject: hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July and which began, for me, with taunts for the Mancunian about his fantastically broad accent
    Verb: are
    Complement: what follows, [anyway].
    Inserting "which are" before 'remembered' doesn't change the above full subject; and it doesn't change the simple subject 'hostilities'.
    [First off, the quotation marks around sentence were meant to indicate that I was unsure as to whether the words concerned did constitute a bona fide sentence. I would have though that was fairly clear. Secondly, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought a finite verb needed to have a direct effect on the subject for it to be considered one (a finite verb). And for how the situation rests with the original, as I now consider it to be, non-sentence, I can conclude, and as was was pointed out by Fivedejohn, that remembered is not a finite verb. It is no such a thing! The past participle, remembered, has no direct effect on, hostilities, the subject. I estimate it as a non-sentence, because those original words (on account of remembered) fall flat on their face, grammatically speaking (though perhaps not in terms of style and legibility). Anyway I'm not a teacher, and am only doing my best to have a stab at things! Three cheers for me, and I don't care if you like me or not! It's a joke!
    Last edited by JIM1984; 28-Jan-2011 at 10:09.

  6. 5jj's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Oct 2010
    • Posts: 28,134
    #6

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    When 'remembered' is the past participle of the verb, nothing can make it finite. In any string of verbs, only the first is finite; the finite verbs are underlined here:

    I remember the hostilities.
    I remembered the hostilities.
    I have remembered the hostilities.
    I will have remembered the hostilities.

    The hostilities are remembered.
    The hostilities were remembered.
    The hostilities have been remembered.
    The hostilies will have been remembered

  7. Banned
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Ireland
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jan 2011
    • Posts: 80
    #7

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    When 'remembered' is the past participle of the verb, nothing can make it finite. In any string of verbs, only the first is finite; the finite verbs are underlined here:

    I remember the hostilities.
    I remembered the hostilities.
    I have remembered the hostilities.
    I will have remembered the hostilities.

    The hostilities are remembered.
    The hostilities were remembered.
    The hostilities have been remembered.
    The hostilies will have been remembered
    [Thanks, and in particular for clarifying that only the first in a string of verbs is finite. Would you agree, that my original text, when remembered only suffices as a past participle, that the text fails, grammatically, as a sentence? In short that remembered fails, being a non finite verb, a mere participle, to act on the subject (hostilities)?]
    Last edited by JIM1984; 28-Jan-2011 at 10:11.

  8. 5jj's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Oct 2010
    • Posts: 28,134
    #8

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    Quote Originally Posted by JIM1984 View Post
    Would you agree, that my original text, when remembered only suffices as a past participle, that the text fails, grammaticaly, as a sentence? In short that remembered fails, being a non finite verb, a mere participle, to act on the subject (hostilities)?]
    "Anyway, what follows are hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July and which began, for me, with taunts for the Mancunian about his fantastically broad accent."

    I don't find the sentence particularly easy to understand, and I am not sure that hostilities can follow in print.

    However, leaving aside those reservations, the sentence is not grammatically incorrect.

    We can understand this as ...what follows are hostilities (which are/have been) remembered in part verbatim from... .The omission of the relative pronoun and BE as part of a passive in a relative clause is permissible. The past participle functions adjectivally. We can see this in the shorter:

    9/ll is a day remembered by many.

  9. Raymott's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Australia
      • Current Location:
      • Australia

    • Join Date: Jun 2008
    • Posts: 24,091
    #9

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    [QUOTE=JIM1984;708345]
    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post

    Anyway I'm not a teacher, and am only doing my best to have a stab at things! Three cheers for me, and I don't care if you like me or not! It's a joke!
    And I was only trying to help you understand the sentence.
    As you see, 5JJ agrees that the sentence is "not incorrect". I set out the subject, verb and complement for you. The verb is "are".
    I never assume that I will receive gratitude from a poster. It's always possible in a forum that others will benefit from my posts, so I don't consider it a complete waste of my time.

  10. Raymott's Avatar
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • Australia
      • Current Location:
      • Australia

    • Join Date: Jun 2008
    • Posts: 24,091
    #10

    Re: Concerning past participles\verbs:

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    We can understand this as ...what follows are hostilities (which are/have been) remembered in part verbatim from... .The omission of the relative pronoun and BE as part of a passive in a relative clause is permissible. The past participle functions adjectivally. We can see this in the shorter:

    9/ll is a day remembered by many.
    That's right, but I don't think the sentence is excessively difficult.
    In the following sentences, the main verb is are.
    "Hostilities remembered are hostilities relived." - grammatical
    "Hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July are hostilities relived by me" - grammatical
    "
    Hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July and which began, for me, with taunts for the Mancunian about his fantastically broad accent are hostilities that I relive." - grammatical

    "Anyway, what follows are hostilities remembered in part verbatim from the encounter that July and which began, for me, with taunts for the Mancunian about his fantastically broad accent
    ." - grammatical

    It seems to me that "remembered" is a simple predicate adjective derived from the past particple.

Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. participles and verbs
    By Unregistered in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 27-May-2009, 12:09
  2. Present participles, past tense, past participle
    By Unregistered in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 14-Jul-2008, 06:06
  3. Verbs (past participles)
    By sohala in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 16-Jan-2008, 23:40
  4. participles vs. verbs
    By 007mohsen in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 23-Dec-2007, 08:51
  5. Past Tenses - Past Participles
    By Unregistered in forum Ask a Teacher
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-Feb-2007, 02:42

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •