The Hidden Evidence: The Past Family

[shun]

"Compared with the present year 2003, LAST YEAR is 2002. However, are you still sure about this in 2008? By that time, you will change your mind and agree that LAST YEAR is 2007. We don't have a specific LAST YEAR. Time is comparative. Past depends what is present. As the present time is forever on-going and changing, so is other timings."

But at any point, the reference is clear.

My reply: So is IN THE PAST YEAR.

:?

[Tdol]

As for your "occasionally use Simple Present to tell past time", please give examples. Perhaps I know what you meant, but it is better for you to give examples.

1) Narratives\stories- I was coming to work this morning and a man gets on the tube....
2) Shakespeare says (historical present)
etc.

[shun]

As for your "occasionally use Simple Present to tell past time", please give examples. Perhaps I know what you meant, but it is better for you to give examples.

1) Narratives\stories- I was coming to work this morning and a man gets on the tube....
2) Shakespeare says (historical present)
etc.

My reply: Your ADVANCED definition of Simple Present first, please.

I haven't yet seen your definition for Simple Present, but I am sure it is much worst than mine.

[Tdol]

I never mentioned advanced definitions. I believe there are two tenses in English and time is not the determining factor.

[shun]

TDOL,

You wrote:

I never mentioned advanced definitions. I believe there are two tenses in English and time is not the determining factor.

My reply: You know I was asking any Simple Present definition you think as the best, or the one you are using. :D

It is interesting to know "time is not the determining factor". Can you explain a little bit more?

Tense comes from Tempus in Latin, meaning Time. Time adverbials are determining factors: with YESTERDAY for example, we use Simple Past.

Therefore, I don't get anything from "time is not the determining factor".

:D Are you implying something we don't know?

:wink:

[Tdol]

The 'present tense' is for actions or states that are seen as near to us, whether that is time, socially or (for the future) in terms of probability. The past is the opposite.

[shun]

The 'present tense' is for actions or states that are seen as near to us, whether that is time, socially or (for the future) in terms of probability. The past is the opposite.

My reply: I very much doubt that. You have explained a NEAR action, not a PRESENT action. I advise you to upgrade your version of definition.

Past actions can be also near: "I posted the message a minute ago", and can be "actions or states that are seen as near to us, whether that is time, socially". Worst of all, you didn't even use examples to help you. Therefore, your definition permits examples of the near past, completely.

:D The incorrectness in yours statement is that when you explain Simple Present, you miss the adjective 'present', but the presentness is of most importance in that tense.

:? Another mistake in your definition is that, accurately, Simple Present doesn't say "(for the future) in terms of probability". You should have skipped this part, as you know you cannot even find examples for support. Probability is expressed by auxiliary verbs. In point of fact, we may claim auxiliaries are helping a verb to denote Future Tense -- therefore we may have "Future Tense", rather than "Simple Future".
Whether we have Future Tense or not, however, is only a game of nomenclature, which doesn't prove anything. Future happenings haven't started yet, but why do we talk about them? We have to provide reasons, and various auxiliaries -- not just SHALL and WILL -- are telling various reasons. Obviously, Simple Present isn’t a reason to tell a probability. On the contrary, when the future case is scheduled and not a probability, we then use Simple Present.

As your Simple Present definition is incorrect, so will be that of your Simple Past.

Therefore, my simple definition that "Simple Present is to express present time" is much more accurate than yours, as I have predicted. In other forums, I even add my promise to my simple definition: "One more word is one more mistake."

"Simple Present is to express present time". One more word is one more mistake.
"Simple Past is to express past time". One more word is one more mistake.
I advise people to keep their definitions clean. I invite any challenge to my simplicity. My definition is much more accurate than others'.

:D Nonetheless, we both cannot cover 'historic present', so please don't ask too much about my saying.
'Historic present' is a kind of skillful expression in writing. Instead of using Simple Past and Past Perfect, we use Simple Present and Present Perfect to relate the whole story.
Only one sentence cannot be a good example of 'historic present'.

As for your "Narratives\stories- I was coming to work this morning and a man gets on the tube....", in conversation, who cares too much about tenses? This is not my own opinion. I have seen this in many forums. EFLs said that.

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Another thing.
:D It is interesting to know from you "time is not the determining factor". Can you explain a little bit more?

[Casiopea]

The metaphor is not good enough. If it is a bridge, the past can reach the present by crossing the bridge, but this is not feasible. When we say it is the present, any time before the present is the past. The past cannot come to the present. No bridge can do that.

The Present Perfect bridge can, and does. :D

[shun]

The metaphor is not good enough. If it is a bridge, the past can reach the present by crossing the bridge, but this is not feasible. When we say it is the present, any time before the present is the past. The past cannot come to the present. No bridge can do that.

The Present Perfect bridge can, and does. :D

My reply: :o "Present Perfect Bridge"! A new term. A very good one. Now the past can come to the present. YESTERDAY is not finished today.

Cas you finally did it!

:D

[Casiopea]

Cas you finally did it! :D

no applause, please

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Psst, either your English has improved over night or you've borrowed someone else's words or your nativeness is starting to show. Careful.