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    #1

    any one

    Please check out the following sentences.

    (1) This winter vacation was different from any one that I have had before.
    (2) This winter vacation was different from the ones which I had before.

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    #2

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiuhto View Post
    Please check out the following sentences.

    (1) This winter vacation was different from any one that I have had before.
    Here "any" means 'all'. It was different from any of the others that you might compare it to. (= It was different from all of them.)
    "have" has no useful purpose.

    (2) This winter vacation was different from the ones which I had before.
    "which" is not needed.
    2006
    Last edited by 2006; 20-Feb-2011 at 07:44.

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    #3

    Re: any one

    This winter vacation was different from any one that I have had before.

    2006: ..."have" has no useful purpose.

    5jj: Well, it has the purpose of making it normal, natural BrE.

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    #4

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    This winter vacation was different from any one that I have had before.

    2006: ..."have" has no useful purpose.

    5jj: Well, it has the purpose of making it normal, natural BrE.
    I understand that and I am not trying to change BrE. But the fact is that the sentence is perfectly fine without "have".

    And related to this issue, the overuse, in my opinion, of perfect tense leads to sentences like the following ones seen on these forums.


    I've been here for the first time.
    I have seen. (to mean 'I see.')
    I have understood. (to mean 'I understand.')
    I have been at home last night.
    Today has been six weeks since they were last seen.
    I have been born in Delhi.

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    #5

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by 2006 View Post
    I understand that and I am not trying to change BrE. But the fact is that the sentence is perfectly fine without "have".
    It may be 'perfectly fine', but you originally crossed out the OP's 'have', saying that it had no useful purpose. The same could be said for many uses of 'have' in many uses of the present perfect - for a speaker of AmE.

    I don't think it is helpful for a learner to be told that a BrE present perfect has no useful purpose; I certainly would not presume to tell a speaker of AmE that their use of a past simple ought to be a present perfect.

    I agree with your objection to the six other utterances you listed - they are not good, natural English in either dialect.

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    #6

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    It may be 'perfectly fine', but you originally crossed out the OP's 'have', saying that it had no useful purpose. The same could be said for many uses of 'have' in many uses of the present perfect - for a speaker of AmE.

    I don't think it is helpful for a learner to be told that a BrE present perfect has no useful purpose; I certainly would not presume to tell a speaker of AmE that their use of a past simple ought to be a present perfect.

    I agree with your objection to the six other utterances you listed - they are not good, natural English in either dialect.

    Is it just about BrE and AmE ?
    "This winter vacation was different from any one that I have had before."

    I prefer "have had" to "had" because I am gathering all memories I have from previous vacations so that I can compare them. it's a kind of transmission from the past to the time being.

    If Americans prefer to use "had" instead of "have had" then I would say they have an "objective approach" to it , rather than a "subjective approach".

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    #7

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    It may be 'perfectly fine', but you originally crossed out the OP's 'have', saying that it had no useful purpose.
    If you agree that it's perfectly fine without "have", which you seem to be doing, I don't understand your objection to my comment about "no useful purpose", other than if you just take it as a criticism of BrE. And there does seem to be a difference between different Englishes.
    My meaning is that the sentence's meaning is entirely clear without "have". I am not trying to be argumentative; I am just trying to have an uninhibited discuussion of this matter. The readers can decide for themselves if what I am saying makes sense to them.

    The same could be said for many uses of 'have' in many uses of the present perfect - for a speaker of AmE. That's true. Speakers of BrE often say that using present perfect signifies 'relevance to the present'. I am not impressed by that argument. The fact that the speaker is saying what (s)he is saying, with or without "have", in itself indicates that the speaker feels the comment is relevant to the present. Otherwise why would it be said?

    Perhaps there is a better way to express the relevance part. Perhaps the better way is to say it expreses a 'current situation'. And this brings us to a present perfect example that I am quite sure we agree on.
    I have lived in England for two years. Without any special context, it means I am still living there.
    I lived in England for two years. Again without any special context, it means I no longer live there.

    My guess would be, and it's only a guess, that BrE has for some reason expanded the use of the present perfect tense from sentences in which it is required to express the correct meaning to sentences in which it is not required to clearly express meaning but is used for a reason that I don't understand.

    I don't think it is helpful for a learner to be told that a BrE present perfect has no useful purpose; I have not made such a blanket statement. But I can only repeat that I see absolutely no grammatic or semantic need for pp tense in the sentence that I made the comment about.

    I certainly would not presume to tell a speaker of AmE that their use of a past simple ought to be a present perfect. You may not, but more than one other speaker of BrE has done just that. Their argument is that the sentence in question is expressing 'relevance to the present' and simple past cannot express relevance to the present, if only by someone's arbitrary definition. Ergo, in their opinion, simple past tense is wrong there.
    2006

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    #8

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by Khosro View Post
    Is it just about BrE and AmE ?
    "This winter vacation was different from any one that I have had before."

    I prefer "have had" to "had" because I am gathering all memories I have from previous vacations so that I can compare them. it's a kind of transmission from the past to the time being. But I don't see what that has to do with deciding whether to use "have". All the previous vacations, even this winter's vcacation, were in the past.

    If Americans prefer to use "had" instead of "have had" then I would say they have an "objective approach" to it , rather than a "subjective approach".
    If so, an "objective approach" should be a better one to help ESL students understand and learn English.
    2006

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    #9

    Re: any one

    I shall leave the discussion here, 2006. We'll have to agree to differ.

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    #10

    Re: any one

    Quote Originally Posted by fivejedjon View Post
    I shall leave the discussion here, 2006. We'll have to agree to differ.
    That's okay with me.

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