all of the fruit pl or sng verb

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ostap77

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"Neither all of the cookies nor all of the fruit have been eaten yet." I was told that here the fruit is singular not plural and it's incorrect to say "have been"?
 

The Dude

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Of course it's plural. The verb is working for all of the cookies AND all of the fruit.

The verb can be singular only if both of the items are singular. As soon as one of them is plural then the verb becomes plural.

Neither the pen nor the pencil is mine;
Neither the glasses nor the hat are mine.
 

ostap77

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Of course it's plural. The verb is working for all of the cookies AND all of the fruit.

The verb can be singular only if both of the items are singular. As soon as one of them is plural then the verb becomes plural.

Neither the pen nor the pencil is mine;
Neither the glasses nor the hat are mine.

"When neither and nor are used to join two subjects, the verb should agree with the subject that is closer to it. ▪ Neither my father nor I am going to the meeting"


Neither the glasses nor the hat is mine.?
 

The Dude

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Sorry, I should have explained more fully: not only do the nouns have to be singular, they also have to be in the third person for the verb to be singular.

'Neither my father nor I are going to the meeting.'
'Neither A nor B is the right answer.'

Definitely it is not the case that the verb agrees only with the closer noun.

This is one of those areas of grammar that become more complicated the more you dig into them. The simple rule that I've outlined inevitably has its exceptions, but if you follow it you should stay out of prison.:cool:

In conversation, there's no time to stop and think this over, so a simple rule learnt is a great help. In marginal cases, either way will be acceptable, even if not strictly correct.
 

Barb_D

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I have to disagree here.

With an or, you make the verb agree with the latter subject.

The dog or the cats are...
The cats or the dog is...

I would apply the same rule to Neither the cookies nor the fruit is... or Neither the fruit nor the cookies are...
 

ostap77

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I have to disagree here.

With an or, you make the verb agree with the latter subject.

The dog or the cats are...
The cats or the dog is...

I would apply the same rule to Neither the cookies nor the fruit is... or Neither the fruit nor the cookies are...

I guess in my example all of the fruit is the plural?
 

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"Neither all of the cookies nor all of the fruit have been eaten yet." I was told that here the fruit is singular not plural and it's incorrect to say "have been"?
Psst, the verb should be singular has since its subject is singular Neither:


  • Neither (A nor B) has been eaten yet.
 

ostap77

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Psst, the verb should be singular has since its subject is singular Neither:


  • Neither (A nor B) has been eaten yet.

1)Fruit can be plural. Suppose I was not refering to one fruit but all of the fruit that were in the basket? Here is the defenition from the Cambridge dictionary "fruit plural fruit or fruits".

2)What about the Dude's post? If I have like this"neither +plural nor+singular=VERB plural?
 

Soup

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1)Fruit can be plural. Suppose I was not refe[r]ring to one fruit but all of the fruit that were in the basket?
It doesn't matter. The subject is Neither, not cookies, not fruit (singular or plural). Take away singular Neither and the subject becomes plural All:

  • All (of the cookies and all of the fruit) have not been eaten yet.

2)What about the Dude's post? If I have like this"neither +plural nor+singular=VERB plural?
The Dude's post confuses me, sorry. All I can add is this: Neither is singular; All is plural. Put the two together (Neither all) and you can see why some people choose Neither has, others choose all have, and yet others do what's best; they rewrite the sentence so that it means what it's intended to mean.
 

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It doesn't matter. The subject is Neither, not cookies, not fruit (singular or plural). Take away singular Neither and the subject becomes plural All:

  • All (of the cookies and all of the fruit) have not been eaten yet.

The Dude's post confuses me, sorry. All I can add is this: Neither is singular; All is plural. Put the two together (Neither all) and you can see why some people choose Neither has, others choose all have, and yet others do what's best; they rewrite the sentence so that it means what it's intended to mean.

So if I have at least one NP that is plural in the neither nor sentence I can follow it up with a plural or a singular verb depending on which one is closer to the end?

1) Neither the president nor the members of the cabinet were informed.

2) Neither the members of the cabinet nor the president was informed.

Judging from these two sentences the subjects are the preident and the members of the cabinet correspondingly. Therefore if fruit is the plural than my original sentence would be correct? "Neither all of the cookies nor all of the fruit have been eaten yet."
 
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The Dude

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I have to disagree here.

With an or, you make the verb agree with the latter subject.

I feel that is categorically wrong. We cannot blandly say that the verb must always agree with the latter subject. That's far too simplistic and can ignore the reality of what the choice actually is.

Let's take a situation: A joint of meat has disappeared from the table. Suspicion automatically rests with the pets, of which there are three cats and a dog. What shall we say? (If we want to put the cats first and the dog second.)

Correctly: "Either the cats or the dog are in trouble". Don't focus on just the dog. Consider the whole choice - several animals, of which one or many could be in trouble.

If you really want to use a singular verb here, you'll have say "Either the cats are in trouble or the dog is".

In the negative:

"The meat is still in the oven. Neither the cats nor the dog are in trouble."

Other examples:

"Neither the workers nor the manager know what to do." (not 'knows')
"Either my feet or my heart rule my head." (not 'rules')

I would repeat the simple mantra, to which I know there may be exceptions: If both subjects of either...or/neither...nor are 3rd person singular, the verb is singular. Otherwise the verb is plural. Why be confused?

There is a better way to deal with this, which is to express ourselves differently. Completely reconstruct the sentence or just put the plural noun next to the verb and thereby keep everybody happy!

Possibly neither side is wrong here, if this is yet another another trans-Atlantic divide?
 

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So if I have at least one NP that is plural in the neither nor sentence I can follow it up with a plural or a singular verb depending on which one is closer to the end?

1) Neither the president nor the members of the cabinet were informed. :tick:

2) Neither the members of the cabinet nor the president was informed. :tick:

Judging from these two sentences the subjects are the preident and the members of the cabinet correspondingly. Therefore if fruit is the plural than my original sentence would be correct? "Neither all of the cookies nor all of the fruit have been eaten yet."
The above example sentences are correct (you have used the rule correctly), but they differ from your original example. In those examples, the rule is as follows: Click on Neither/Nor

As for your original example, the syntax differs. Neither is your subject. If, however, you want to make a sentence that has plural fruit(s) as the subject, then try this:


  • Neither the dairy nor the fruit(s) are ready to ship.

BUT you'd better tell your readers that you are using fruit as a plural noun, otherwise they will assume that you got the verb wrong. You see, most people (irrespective of what a dictionary has to say) do not consider the noun fruit plural. To them it is singular.

______________
I ate all the cookies and all the fruit. Sorry, there's nothing more to digest. ;-)
 

Soup

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Possibly neither side is wrong here, if this is yet another another trans-Atlantic divide?
Not at all. Your contribution is meaningful. Allow me to offer support:


When singular subjects are connected with neither...nor, the verb is usually and more acceptably singular, but is sometimes plural: "Neither cat nor dog is/are allowed." Again, this is because neither...nor is a negative counterpart to either...or, which is singular, and is also a negative counterpart to both...and, which is plural. But if both subjects are plural, the verb is plural: "Neither cats nor dogs are allowed." If there is a singular and a plural subject, it is most acceptable to put the plural subject second and have the verb agree with the nearest (plural) subject. Even if the plural subject is placed first, before the singular subject, it is common to use a plural verb.


 

The Dude

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Psst, the verb should be singular has since its subject is singular Neither:


  • Neither (A nor B) has been eaten yet.

:shock: To my mind, 'neither' is not the subject. But then, I'm not a grammar technician.
 
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The Dude

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If there is a singular and a plural subject, it is most acceptable to put the plural subject second and have the verb agree with the nearest (plural) subject. Even if the plural subject is placed first, before the singular subject, it is common to use a plural verb.

Sounds good to me, so why change it? :-

With respect to Bill Bryson, I don't agree with him.
 
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Soup

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Sounds good to me, so why change it? :-
I believe the rules/patterns cited (in the Random House source) are based on a descriptive account (how people use the language), not on a prescriptive account (how people are expected to use the language; i.e., Billy B). As for me, I walk a fuzzy line. Either way, we have all the goods now and the PO should be happy with our finds. That's the point of all this, right?

Peace. :cool:
 

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:shock: To my mind, 'neither' is not the subject. But then, I'm not a grammar technician.
You don't have to be a person interested in how language works to get the meanings here:


  • Neither has been eaten yet.

  • All have not been eaten yet.
 

The Dude

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Having now looked at Mavens' Word of the Day, I can congratulate Carol for recognising that the plural verb follows 'neither...nor' when the first choice is plural and the second is singular.

However I absolutely condemn her for recommending that 'neither' can be used for more choices than two. The example she gives is ridiculous. It's small wonder that students are confused when they are taught correctly but then encounter this sort of misinformation.
 

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