[Grammar] I`ve a good knowledge of English. - Have I really?

[Hucky]

Interesting question, and a tricky one to answer.

When I say "the people I have known" I'm referring to my life experience and its effect on the opinion that I have now. Exactly When I knew these people isn't important, but it did happen at some point up to and including now.

Compare: "I knew a lot of people in university" (the implication is that now I'm not in university, or I don't know a lot of people, or both.)

"I've known a lot of people who use 'do you have' but not 'have you'" (the point when I knew the people, or even if I still know them is not important.)

You couldn`t have paraphrased the meaning of the present perfect in a better way than you did in your first paragraph. Now I am sure that you did not have the past tense in mind. But wouldn´t the present perfect imply the present tense: people I know? In other words, when I say: "I have known my friend since we went to school." does that not mean: "I still know him." so that it would properly do without the latter? Or did you mean by using the present simple in addition to the present perfect to render some extra information or to put emphasis on some aspect that is not implied in the latter?

 

[Airone]

But wouldn´t the present perfect imply the present tense: people I know?

Not necessarily. If I remember correctly, grammar books usually get around this by saying the present perfect implies "some effect" on the present. This is also why the present perfect is difficult to teach. For example, if I say "I've been with 200 women", it doesn't mean I am with a woman at this moment.

In other words, when I say: "I have known my friend since we went to school." does that not mean: "I still know him." so that it would properly do without the latter?

In this case yes, but "since" and "for" sentences are more straightforward.

Or did you mean by using the present simple in addition to the present perfect to render some extra information or to put emphasis on some aspect that is not implied in the latter?

Think of it this way: If I say "I've been to Hungary 3 times" it's not clear where I am now. Same with "I've known many English speakers". With only that sentence, I might not know any at the moment.

So I meant to communicate that not only have I known many native English speakers over the course of my life, but I also know them currently. (and only two have said "I haven't a lighter" )

 

[probus]

One little point that has gone unmentioned so far is that while "I've" may be rare in the affirmative it is not uncommon in the negative.

Back at at the beginning of the thread when 5jj said "I've no idea who ..." it sounded natural and common. Later Thatone said it was not uncommon.

In my part of the world "I've no ..." is pretty common.

I've no problem with that.
I've no trouble believing ...

And we sometimes hear "I've not ..." especially among highly educated speakers. "I've not seen that before" would sound quite natural between a pair of professors or lawyers.

 

[Vidor]

not a teacher

One little point that has gone unmentioned so far is that while "I've" may be rare in the affirmative it is not uncommon in the negative.

Back at at the beginning of the thread when 5jj said "I've no idea who ..." it sounded natural and common. Later Thatone said it was not uncommon.

In my part of the world "I've no ..." is pretty common.

I've no problem with that.
I've no trouble believing ...

Not in America. An American would say "I have no" or "I've got".

And we sometimes hear "I've not ..." especially among highly educated speakers. "I've not seen that before" would sound quite natural between a pair of professors or lawyers.

Never heard this either. "I have not" or "I've never".

 

[birdeen's call]

Re: not a teacher

Not in America. An American would say "I have no" or "I've got".

By "America", do you mean the US?

 

[Airone]

Re: not a teacher

By "America", do you mean the US?

When you hear someone referred to as American, do you think he might be from Mexico? I don't see how PC prescriptivism adds anything to the discussion.

 

[5jj]

Re: not a teacher

When you hear someone referred to as American, do you think he might be from Mexico? I don't see how PC prescriptivism adds anything to the discussion.

Well, Canadians are certainly North American

 

[birdeen's call]

Re: not a teacher

Well, Canadians are certainly North American

That's exactly why I asked the question. I don't know what PC prescriptivism is, what is it?

 

[5jj]

Re: not a teacher

That's exactly why I asked the question. I don't know what PC prescriptivism is, what is it?

We'd need a new thread for that, BC. I wouldn't worry, if I were you. In asking about the use of the word 'America' (not 'American' ), you were not being PC-prescriptivist.

 

[birdeen's call]

Re: not a teacher

Oh, I get it. PC = political correctness, PC != personal computer.

 

[Hucky]

But wouldn´t the present perfect imply the present tense: people I know?

Not necessarily. If I remember correctly, grammar books usually get around this by saying the present perfect implies "some effect" on the present. This is also why the present perfect is difficult to teach. For example, if I say "I've been with 200 women", it doesn't mean I am with a woman at this moment.

In other words, when I say: "I have known my friend since we went to school." does that not mean: "I still know him." so that it would properly do without the latter?

In this case yes, but "since" and "for" sentences are more straightforward.

Or did you mean by using the present simple in addition to the present perfect to render some extra information or to put emphasis on some aspect that is not implied in the latter?

Think of it this way: If I say "I've been to Hungary 3 times" it's not clear where I am now. Same with "I've known many English speakers". With only that sentence, I might not know any at the moment.

So I meant to communicate that not only have I known many native English speakers over the course of my life, but I also know them currently. (and only two have said "I haven't a lighter" )

As to the non-implication of the present in the present perfect, I can see your point with the two convincing examples you have cited ("I've been with 200 women / I've been to Hungary 3 times). But I fail to do so with your latter example: "I´ve known many English speakers." since to know is a static verb. Don´t you think that the state of knowing lasts until the subject of the knowing has done his final breath or, at least, is out of his mind? It seems to look different with get to know, meet, or speak with/to due to their verb character. What do you make of that?

P.S. That´s a good one: I known many native English speakers over the course of my life, but I also know them currently. (and only two have said "I haven't a lighter"

 

[Hucky]

One little point that has gone unmentioned so far is that while "I've" may be rare in the affirmative it is not uncommon in the negative.

Back at at the beginning of the thread when 5jj said "I've no idea who ..." it sounded natural and common. Later Thatone said it was not uncommon.

In my part of the world "I've no ..." is pretty common.

I've no problem with that.
I've no trouble believing ...

And we sometimes hear "I've not ..." especially among highly educated speakers. "I've not seen that before" would sound quite natural between a pair of professors or lawyers.

Do you mean to assign the contracted forms of to have: I've no problem with that.
I've no trouble believing ...
to a higher register (level of style)?

Your example: "I've not seen that before" doesn´t count here, however, since it concerns the contracted form of the auxiliary verb to have.

 

[probus]

Do you mean to assign the contracted forms of to have:
I've no problem with that.
I've no trouble believing ...
to a higher register (level of style)?

No, I'm just saying they are sometimes heard where I live.

 

[Hucky]

Do you mean to assign the contracted forms of to have:
I've no problem with that.
I've no trouble believing ...
to a higher register (level of style)?

No, I'm just saying they are sometimes heard where I live.

Thank you for that clarification! Well, I thought so because you wrote previously that those patterns could be heard among highly educated speakers. But that statement referred, as I`ve just checked, to the
"I`ve not seen that before" structure.

 

[Vidor]

Re: not a teacher

By "America", do you mean the US?

Yes. That's what we call it.

 

[Vidor]

not a teacher

Anyway, in America, Americans do not use "I've" by itself ever, not in the positive or negative sense. Of course now that I think about it, there's no reason why

"I've not seen that before"

clangs against the ear while

I've never seen that before

is standard. Odd, that.

 

[birdeen's call]

Re: not a teacher

Yes. That's what we call it.

***OFF-TOPIC***
It's a bit odd. I know that people in the US call their country America. But this particular time it seems strange to me. You responded to probus' post and probus is a Canadian. He said that he used "I've" the way we're discussing and you said

Not in America. An American would say "I have no" or "I've got".

Were you contrasting Canada and America? If so, is it common? It's the first time I see this. The following wouldn't seem at all strange to me:

Not in the US. An American would say "I have no" or "I've got".

 

[Vidor]

not a teacher

It is standard usage in the United States. Not everyone else uses "America" in that way--I believe it's standard practice in England to refer to America as "the States", but maybe our British users can comment--and some people, principally South Americans I think, object. But it remains standard usage here in America. One could provide a host of examples, starting with patriotic songs like "America the Beautiful" and "God Bless America". We also are the only nation in either North or South America that actually has the word "America" in our name.

As far as your revision of my post above--"Not in the US"--yes, it would also be perfectly acceptable.

 

[probus]

For fifty years before joining usingenglish.com I believed there were practically no differences in English usage between Canada and the U.S.
Shows how little thought I ever gave it. Since I got on to this board, I've come to realize there are plenty, or at least plenty of little ones.

 

[5jj]

Re: not a teacher

It is standard usage in the United States. Not everyone else uses "America" in that way--I believe it's standard practice in England to refer to America as "the States", but maybe our British users can comment--and some people, principally South Americans I think, object.

I don't know about 'standard practice'; we use both 'the States' and 'America' for the United States. We also speak of the continent of America which was why BC's question in post #25 was a request for clarification rather than anything to do with political correctness.

Citizens of the United States can, of course, call themselves anything they wish, but it is not surprising that some other inhabitants of the continent feel unhappy that they cannot call themselves 'American' in the way that BC from Poland and I from England can both call ourselves 'European'.