Dental Fricative [Th Sound] : My Nightmare

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HerTz

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Hey guys,

I've had enough with this consonant. I still can't articulate good enough when I'm talking fast. My mother language does not have the consonants θ and ð, but it has the consonants s and z.
s and z (Alveolar) are the two consonants that occur in the mouth just before θ and ð (Dental).

Anyhow, I think I can learn how to articulate θ and ð if you could describe how does the tongue's and/or the mouth's position change when you articulate θ and ð, after articulating s and z.

Also, does your tongue touch any part of the teeth?
 

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Yes it does touch. The easiest way of describing this is: look in a mirror. Those two fricatives are the only consonants in Br Eng that let you see the tongue.

b
 

5jj

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Anyhow, I think I can learn how to articulate θ and ð if you could describe how does the tongue's and/or the mouth's position change when you articulate θ and ð, after articulating s and z.
If you can already produce /s/ and /z/, and are confident that you will be able to pronounce /θ/ and /ð/, then there is no real problem in saying such things as 'cross the road, cross thick mud, close the door, Rose thinks'. The tongue slides forward from the alveolar ridge to the teeth. In informal conversation the full glide may not be completed, and you may actually hear things that sound similar to 'cross a road, cross sick mud, close a door, Rose sinks'.

The glide the other way appears to be more difficult, even for native speakers, and you will often hear 'months' pronounced as /mʌnts/ or /mʌns/, 'clothes' as /kləʊz/, and both 'sixth' and'sixths' as /sɪks/ or /sɪkst/
 
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birdeen's call

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HerTz, try pronouncing the interdental fricative. Put the tip of your tongue between your teeth, touching your upper teeth. You say:
s and z (Alveolar) are the two consonants that occur in the mouth just before θ and ð (Dental).
There is a small distance between the position of your tongue in dental consonants and the position in alveolar consonants. If you make your dental fricatives interdental, you will make the distance larger, which could help you contrast them with the alveolar ones.
 

özlemlonging

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Uhhh really nightmare
 

HerTz

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Guys, thanks very much for the responses. By the way, I found this really helpful GIF from a Australian university website.

w74yC.gif


According to this GIF, only the tip of the tongue changes its position and the base of the tongue remains same. Also the tongue does not touch the teeth unless it's a interdental consonant.

Yes it does touch. The easiest way of describing this is: look in a mirror. Those two fricatives are the only consonants in Br Eng that let you see the tongue.

b

9R1sk.gif


Thanks for the great tip. By the way according to the GIF and the image above, if it's a fricative we're talking about it does not touch the teeth but it the tongue comes really close to the teeth, unless special cases. (interdental consonant)

If you can already produce /s/ and /z/, and are confident that you will be able to pronounce /θ/ and /ð/, then there is no real problem in saying such things as 'cross the road, cross thick mud, close the door, Rose thinks'. The tongue slides forward from the alveolar ridge to the teeth. In informal conversation the full glide may not be completed, and you may actually hear things that sound similar to 'cross a road, cross sick mud, close a door, Rose sinks'.

The glide the other way appears to be more difficult, even for native speakers, and you will often hear 'months' pronounced as /mʌnts/ or /mʌns/, 'clothes' as /klʊəz/, and both 'sixth' and'sixths' as /sɪks/ or /sɪkst/

Thanks for the great tip. By the way one of the IPA of the word "clothes" is already /kloʊz/ or in the Received Pronunciation /kləʊz/. *

:up: And, indeed, your lower teeth. This is risky if you fall over. ;-)

b

Thanks for your response. But I couldn't understand "fall over".

HerTz, try pronouncing the interdental fricative. Put the tip of your tongue between your teeth, touching your upper teeth. You say:
There is a small distance between the position of your tongue in dental consonants and the position in alveolar consonants. If you make your dental fricatives interdental, you will make the distance larger, which could help you contrast them with the alveolar ones.

Thanks for the great tip. I'm still hesitant for the usage of the interdental consonants, because according to Wikipedia the interdental consonants are only used in General American when articulating words like 'then' and 'thin'. *
 
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5jj

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. Also the tongue does not touch the teeth unless it's a interdental consonant. Thanks for the great tip. By the way according to the image above, if it's a fricative we're talking about it does not touch the teeth, unless special cases. (interdental consonant)
In the BrE dental fricatives, "the tips and rims of the tongue make light contact with the edge and inner surface of the upper incisors, and a firmer contact with the upper side teeth [....] With some speakers, the tongue tip may protrude between the teeth..."

Cruttenden, Alan (2001) Gimson's Pronunciation of English, London: Arnold.

ps. sorry about my typo in /kləʊz/, now corrected.
 

HerTz

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In the BrE dental fricatives, "the tips and rims of the tongue make light contact with the edge and inner surface of the upper incisors, and a firmer contact with the upper side teeth [....] With some speakers, the tongue tip may protrude between the teeth..."

Cruttenden, Alan (2001) Gimson's Pronunciation of English, London: Arnold.

ps. sorry about my typo in /kləʊz/, now corrected.

Thanks for the reply.

Then I'm wrong about that fricatives not touching the teeth.

So, in Received Pronunciation the tongue touches slightly to the teeth.
 

birdeen's call

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Thanks for the great tip. I'm still hesitant for the usage of the interdental consonants, because according to Wikipedia the interdental consonants are only used in General American when articulating words like 'then' and 'thin'. *
I don't think you need to worry about this. The difference between the two types is very slight. I know I couldn't tell which one a person is pronouncing.
 

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...
Thanks for your response. But I couldn't understand "fall over".
...
It was a silly joke - about biting the tip of your tongue off when pronouncing 'this' and falling down at the same time (hitting or jerking your head). :oops:

b
 

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Guys, thanks very much for the responses. By the way, I found this really helpful GIF from a Australian university website.

w74yC.gif
This is a confusing diagram. These sounds are interdental, and it should not be assumed from this that Australians do not cover the crowns of the front teeth with the tongue for /th/.
This looks more like a Russian dental d as in "Da" or a Hindi dental T or D.
Anyhow, this tongue position is OK, as long as the sound is 'th' and there's no sibilance escaping.
 

konungursvia

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The way I teach it to my students is to try to make an /f/ sound with your tongue doing the job of the lower lip.
 

BobK

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It took me a while to work this out, but I see that students might find it helpful - and it cuts through a lot of jargon. ;-)

b
 

HerTz

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Guys, thanks very much for the responses.

This is a confusing diagram. These sounds are interdental, and it should not be assumed from this that Australians do not cover the crowns of the front teeth with the tongue for /th/.
This looks more like a Russian dental d as in "Da" or a Hindi dental T or D.
Anyhow, this tongue position is OK, as long as the sound is 'th' and there's no sibilance escaping.

I'm a little bit confused right now. So the Australians' Dental Fricative is interdental. But the diagram is not interdental, but it's correct?

Second, mustn't there be a air turbulence escaping outside to produce the Dental Fricative by covering the crowns of the front teeth. After all the tongue is not touching the teeth.

By the way, Australian English is interdental (or covering the crowns of the teeth [???] ), Received Pronunciation is interdental (according to fivejedjon), General American is interdental (according to Wikipedia). Which one is not interdental?
 

BobK

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Guys, thanks very much for the responses.



I'm a little bit confused right now. So the Australians' Dental Fricative is interdental. But the diagram is not interdental, but it's correct?
Who said it was correct:-? You said it was 'helpful', and Raymott - a local expert on Aus English - said it was 'confusing'; but I think those are the only two views we've met (in this thread, at least).

Second, mustn't there be a air turbulence escaping outside to produce the Dental Fricative by covering the crowns of the front teeth. After all the tongue is not touching the teeth.
Who says not? It is touching the teeth.

By the way, Australian English is interdental (or covering the crowns of the teeth [???] ), Received Pronunciation is interdental (according to fivejedjon), General American is interdental (according to Wikipedia). Which one is not interdental?

By rather ridiculous facial contortions, I have found that it's possible to produce a fricative with the tip of the tongue flattened against the back of the teeth; I've never met a language that uses this, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was one. All the ones you've mentioned, though, are interdental.

I've never drawn an animated GIF image, but I assume you draw images to represent the extreme points, and the computer fills in the gaps to produce the appearance of movement. The artist here presumably wanted to save time and effort by not redrawing the whole tongue. This makes the result misleading. It makes the point of articulation inaccurate (as the tip of the tongue couldn't be far enough forward unless the body of the tongue were preternaturally stretchy). 'Helpful' isn't a word that springs to my mind. ;-)

b
 
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5jj

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Guys, thanks very much for the responses.

I'm a little bit confused right now. So the Australians' Dental Fricative is interdental. But the diagram is not interdental, but it's correct?
No, the Australian /th/ is no different from any other /th/. I'm not saying whether I think the diagram is correct or not. You can pronounce /th/ in a number of ways - one of which includes the tongue position in this diagram. However, it's more commonly described, and perhaps articulated, as an interdental. Where exactly your put you tongue tip would depend on individual factors such as how long your tongue is, the state of your dentition, etc. The important thing is the sound, which, to me, is more easily made with my tongue tip in front of my top teeth, not behind them.

Second, mustn't there be a air turbulence escaping outside to produce the Dental Fricative by covering the crowns of the front teeth. After all the tongue is not touching the teeth.
Yes, there's air turbulence. It escapes in similar places to a /v/, except that a /v/ is produced with the bottom lip. (as kon suggests above, with /f/). In fact, you can pronounce a /v/ with the bottom lip in the same place as the tongue tip in that diagram (but why would you?).
I'm not sure what you mean by "the tongue is not touching the teeth" if the tongue is covering (touching) the crowns of the teeth.
This is a shematic of how I say /th/ (I have a slight overbite).
|__
_|

The diagram gives
|---
|

By the way, Australian English is interdental (or covering the crowns of the teeth [???] ), Received Pronunciation is interdental (according to fivejedjon), General American is interdental (according to Wikipedia). Which one is not interdental?
I've never been aware of any difference
Whenever I post a diagram or a quote from the web, I give a URL reference. I can't answer for what "a Australian university website" posts unless I can check it out.
R.
 
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HerTz

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Thanks to everyone who participated in this discussion. I really developed myself about the dental fricative. Also, here's the university website I was talking about.

Fricatives
 
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