it/that

[navi tasan]

Why didn't you argue with him?

1-Are you kidding? It was a gun on the table.
2-Are you kidding? That was a gun on the table.


Are "1" and "2" both acceptable as a reply to the original sentence?

 

[freezeframe]

Why didn't you argue with him?

1-Are you kidding? It was a gun on the table.
2-Are you kidding? That was a gun on the table.


Are "1" and "2" both acceptable as a reply to the original sentence?

2. sounds more natural.

Also, you could use "there was a gun on the table".

 

[navi tasan]

Thanks a lot Freezeframe.

I like "2" better myself as well. But would you say "1" is incorrect?

 

[freezeframe]

Thanks a lot Freezeframe.

I like "2" better myself as well. But would you say "1" is incorrect?

Language isn't math. You can make many technically correct sentences that native speakers would never say. A better question is "would a native speaker say this?"

 

[navi tasan]

I am sorry. You are right. So you think that "1" is not something a native speaker would say?

 

[Tdol]

Probably not, but guns are frightening so people may use less expected forms when shaking with fear. ;-)

 

[navi tasan]

I did not expect such an answer from such a courageous moderator!
All you need to speak coherently when facing guns is guts.;-)

Thanks Tdol.

 

[AlexAD]

That was classic! Thank you, Tdol :up:

 

[5jj]

All you need to speak coherently when facing guns is guts.

That's all? No problem, then - for others.

 

[Soup]

Why didn't you argue with him?

1-Are you kidding? It was a gun on the table.
2-Are you kidding? That was a gun on the table.


Are "1" and "2" both acceptable as a reply to the original sentence?

If we look at your examples from a strictly structural view, a wonderful pattern emerges.


First, if we interpret 'It' as a pronoun meaning, say, 'That thing we saw', then sentence 1- works (given Tdol's suggested context):

1- It (That thing we saw) was a gun on the table.


​

On the other hand, if we interpret 'It' as an expletive, the sentence reads awkward because the phrase 'on the table' is interpreted as part of the semantic subject (i.), but it is not. It is an adverbial complement (ii.), structurally separate from the noun it modifies, and as such requires a pronoun with adverbial properties, which is why 'There' is used (iv.):

i. It was a gun on the table. :cross: expletive
ii. A gun was on the table.
iii. There is a gun on the table.


​

I see a similar pattern in your second example:

2. That was a gun on the table.

​

i. That was a gun.
ii. That (there) was a gun on the table.


​

The pronoun 'That' refers to 'a gun', whereas the omitted pronoun 'there' refers to 'on the table'. In your example 2-, 'That' is short for 'That (there)' as evidenced by the symmetry in ii. directly above.



In sum, and from a strictly structural view, the symmetry is as follows:

• It was a gun.
• It was a gun on the table. :cross: expletive-it
• It was a gun on the table. pronominal-it
  

• There was a gun on the table.
  

• That there was a gun on the table.

 

[5jj]

On the other hand, if we interpret 'It' as an expletive,...

How can 'it' be an expletive?

 

[navi tasan]

Thank you all.

ex·ple·tive (

k

spl

-t

v) [SIZE=-2]KEY[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]NOUN:[/SIZE]

1. An exclamation or oath, especially one that is profane, vulgar, or obscene.
2. 1. A word or phrase that does not contribute any meaning but is added only to fill out a sentence or a metrical line.
   2. Linguistics A word or other grammatical element that has no meaning but is needed to fill a syntactic position, such as the words it and there in the sentences It's raining and There are many books on the table.

I am not sure that "it" could be considered an expletive in my examples.

Consider this:
-There was a child in the doorway.
A-What? It was not a child. It was a man in the doorway!
(or: A1-It was a man that was in the doorway!)

Someone suggested that if the two people have actually seen the scene they are talking about "that" should be used. Otherwise one should use "it". I think in A and A1, one does have a choice. In the original examples however "that" seems to be correct and "it" seems to sound weird (to me, and I am not a native speaker). I guess "that" emphasizes the fact that the other person has seen what is being spoken of.

PS.

I think the sentence:

B-It was a man in the street.
is actually ambiguous and could be pronounced in two different ways, each corresponding to one of the meanings.

A man in the street reported the accident.
Who reported the accident?
It was a man in the street (that reported the accident).

"A man in the street" is a noun phrase here.

They thought they say a dog lying in the street. John came over and took a look with the binoculars. He realized that it was a man in the street (It was a man that was in the street, not a dog).
He realized that "it" (what was in the street) was a man.

 

[Soup]

I am not sure that "it" could be considered an expletive in my examples.

The point is that it could be interpreted that way:


[A] It was a man (that was) in the street. expletive reading

Meaning 1, A man was in the street.
non-expletive reading

Meaning 2, What you saw was a man in the street.
pronoun reading
​

__________________________


-What? It was not a child.
-What? What you saw was not a child. pronoun reading


_____________________



It was a gun (that was) on the table. expletive reading

Meaning 1, a gun was on the table. non-expletive reading

Meaning 2, What we saw was a gun on the table.
pronoun reading
​

 

[5jj]

The point is that it could be interpreted that way:

It was a gun (that was) on the table. expletive reading

It could be interpreted that way. I asked my question (post #11)because you had written, "if we interpret 'It' as an expletive, the sentence reads awkward", and then placed placed :cross: by your expletive example:

" i. It was a gun on the table. :cross: expletive"

 

[Soup]

It could be interpreted that way. I asked my question (post #11)because you had written, "if we interpret 'It' as an expletive, the sentence reads awkward", and then placed placed :cross: by your expletive example:

" i. It was a gun on the table. :cross: expletive"

Exactly.

 

[navi tasan]

Thank you Soup and Fivejedjon.

Someone suggested to me that the "that" version should be used if people are talking about something they have all seen.

I thought there was a cat on the table. But then I realized that it was a gun on the table.
(The people I am talking to have not seen the gun)

I thought there was a cat on the table. But later John and said to me: "That was a gun on the table!"
(John and I both saw the gun.)

I think in this context "it" would be a bit awkward.

 

[5jj]

Someone suggested to me that the "that" version should be used if people are talking about something they have all seen.

I thought there was a cat on the table. But then I realized that it was a gun on the table.
(The people I am talking to have not seen the gun)

I thought there was a cat on the table. But later John and said to me: "That was a gun on the table!"
(John and I both saw the gun.)

I think in this context "it" would be a bit awkward.

There may be soething in what you say. I must think about it a little more.

Freezeframe effectively dealt with your initial question in posts #2 and #4. We then got a little side-tracked on 'it'.

 

[Soup]

Thank you Soup and Fivejedjon.

Someone suggested to me that the "that" version should be used if people are talking about something they have all seen.

I would agree.


As for that examples you provided, they sound more natural to me this way:

• I thought there was a cat on the table. But then I realized that it was a gun that I saw on the table.

• I thought there was a cat on the table. But later John and said to me: "That was a gun that we saw on the table!"

• I thought there was a cat on the table. But later John [STRIKE]and[/STRIKE] said to me: "It was a gun that we both sawon the table, not a cat!"

As for your original sentences (Post #1), if you are asking about native speaker intuition, the "it" version doesn't sound like English to me:


A: Why didn't you argue with him?
B: Are you kidding? It was a gun on the table.

• There was a gun on the table.

May I ask why you are trying to fit "it" into that structure?

 

[navi tasan]

Thanks Soup.

If I followed what you have said correctly, you believe that the structure, when used with "it", could be be interpreted different ways, in one of which "it" is an expletive and in the other a pronoun. I was just trying to figure out when one would use "it" and when "that".

I was watching a film recently in which I thought I heard this sentence:
It was evidence we found in your trunk.

The sentence struck me as "off". I would have used "that". Actually, I was surprised when I heard the sentence. Hence my question.

 

[Soup]

Freezeframe effectively dealt with your initial question in posts #2 and #4.

Not so. You may feel that way, but others do not. (Please speak for yourself.) It really hasn't been dealt with. If that were the case, then why has the poster come back with more questions?

We then got a little side-tracked on 'it'.

You were side-tracked, not 'We' (Please speak for yourself).