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    #1

    what is 'that' in this sentence

    Dear all,

    What is 'that' in this sentence ?

    The argument that advertising leads to consumerism has been accepted by more and more people

    Is that functioning as defining relative clause ?

    Many thnaks

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    #2

    Re: what is 'that' in this sentence

    Not a teacher.

    'that' is a conjunction in your example.

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    #3

    Re: what is 'that' in this sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by duiter View Post
    Dear all,

    What is 'that' in this sentence ?

    The argument that advertising leads to consumerism has been accepted by more and more people

    Is that functioning as defining relative clause ?

    Many thnaks

    ***** A NON-TEACHER's OPINION *****


    (1) You have asked a super difficult question.

    (2) According to Professor Paul Roberts's Understanding

    English (published in 1954), grammarians do not agree.

    (3) If I understand Professor Roberts correctly, one thing

    in your sentence is clear: "that" is not a relative pronoun.

    The proof? Erase the word:

    The argument advertising leads to consumerism has been accepted by more and more people.

    As you can see, it makes no difference.

    That is why "that" is simply a conjunction. (Or even an "expletive":

    a word that books used when they feel that the word does not

    really belong to any of the usual word groups.)

    These grammarians would explain that " advertising leads to

    consumerism" is simply a noun clause in

    apposition with ""argument." It is introduced by "that," which is

    not really necessary. As you know, something in apposition simply

    explains a word, but the clause is not really necessary for

    "good" English. Your sentence is basically:

    The argument has been accepted by more and more people.

    Of course, people would ask you: What argument?

    Then you would explain by adding the noun clause to explain the

    word "argument."

    P.S. I think that the following would be a true adjective clause (with

    "that" being a true relative pronoun):

    The argument that he gave convinced everybody in the audience.

    As you can see, in that sentence the word "that" represents "argument"

    and is being used as the object of "gave":

    The argument argument he gave convinced everybody.

    Of course, it is "bad" English to repeat the second "argument,"

    so the "inventors" of the English language came up with "that."

    (Relative pronoun = it is a pronoun + it "relates" to a particular

    word.)

    Respectfully yours,

    James

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    #4

    Re: what is 'that' in this sentence

    Dear TheParser,

    What I know is a conjunction is connecting two clauses

    example : I didnít know that she was married

    but 'that' in below sentence does NOT connect the sentence

    The argument that advertising leads to consumerism has been accepted by more and more people


    or is 'that' a demonstrative pronoun

    that - definition of that by Macmillan Dictionary

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    #5

    Re: what is 'that' in this sentence

    The argument ( that advertising leads to consumerism) has been accepted by more and more people

    (that avertising leads to consumerism) is a noun clause. It does not define the argument. It tells us what it is about.

    "That" is as a conjunction here.

    ---------------

    The argument (that I found weak yesterday) now seems convincing to me.
    (that I found weak yesterday) is a relative clause. It defines the argument. It tells us which one is being talked about.

    "that" is a relative pronoun here.

    If you don't find the replies convincing, try
    Definition and pronunciation of that | Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary

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    #6

    Re: what is 'that' in this sentence

    Quote Originally Posted by duiter View Post
    Dear TheParser,

    What I know is a conjunction is connecting two clauses

    example : I didnít know that she was married

    but 'that' in below sentence does NOT connect the sentence

    The argument that advertising leads to consumerism has been accepted by more and more people


    or is 'that' a demonstrative pronoun

    that - definition of that by Macmillan Dictionary

    ***** A NON-TEACHER's OPINION *****


    (1) Thank you for your note.

    (2) I apologize for not being clear in my first post. You are

    100% correct: "that" does nothing in your "advertising"

    sentence. So some books call it a subordinating conjunction or

    simply an expletive. It is there only to introduce the noun clause, and

    if you left it out, there would be no problem.

    For example:

    The idea (that) all people are good is obviously wrong.

    "all people are good" is a noun clause in apposition with "idea."

    The "that" makes a smoother introduction, but it is not necessary.

    (3) By the way, in your "married" sentence, "that" is also not

    necessary. It plays no role in the noun clause. Again, some books

    would just call it a subordinating conjunction or expletive. For example:

    I know (that) you are a great student.

    (4) I think that (subordinating conjunction!!!) the demonstrative

    pronoun "that" is quite different. You use it when you (mentally)

    point with your finger.

    Police officer: Did this man do it?

    You: No, sir. That man standing under the street over there did it.

    (5) Verona has also given you and me some very helpful information.

    Respectfully yours,

    James

    P.S. I have "bad news." If a noun clause starts a sentence, then

    you MUST use it:

    That usingenglish.com helps many people is a well-known fact.

    (You must use the "that." Yes, English is, indeed, a difficult

    language for all of us!!!)
    Last edited by TheParser; 30-Apr-2011 at 15:55.

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