Page 7 of 8 First ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 Last
Results 61 to 70 of 74

Thread: who is online

  1. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #61

    Re: who is online

    Roro, (with bated breath) I await your 'mere basic' scheme.

  2. #62

    Re: who is online

    Hello Casiopea,
    I've been thinking that I have defined the grammatical (= morphological) category aspect perhaps differently from your definition. Anyway it's one of the most notorious term for its vagueness, isn't it.

    This is a thread for discussion on modality, so I feel hesitant to dig into this matter; may I ask you only a simple question: do you mean aspectual modal = (may/might, can/could, shall/should) ?

    If so, on what grounds... (as I said I don't know much about English grammar itself. Sorry for my elementary question, and sorry again in advance: I won't change my own definition so easily, until I will be convinced )

    Roro, (with bated breath) I await your 'mere basic' scheme.
    Dear Casiopea, thank you , in a few hours, hopefully.
    Last edited by Roro; 11-Oct-2005 at 07:04.

  3. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #63

    Re: who is online

    Just my own stupidity, Roro. (I've been reading up on [i]aspect[/u] all week -totally unrelated to this thread - and it just happened to slip in here.)

    Here's what I should have written:

    Category I
    Auxiliary Verb: expresses past tense

    Category II
    Modal Auxiliary: expresses a mood

    My question, again: Is there a difference between Category I and II? That is, call "will" a verb and that makes it OK to say it carries tense; call it a modal and it's not OK to say it carries tense; why not admit "will" doesn't carry tense, and merge the Categories?

  4. #64

    Re: who is online

    Oh I see, sorry to have troubled you, Casiopea!
    Yes, it's a very important, and interesting problem. This distinction should be explained, and in my humble opinion (which is still far from complete), could be explained in terms of the distinction between deontic / epistemic modality. (I have in mind Tim Stowell's paper....with slight modification, maybe, with regard to will/would.)

    Roughly speaking, modals which convey the root-modal senses can be located within the scope of tense. Those grammatical markers (in your Category I) have these two meanings (i.e. tense & modal meanings) cumulated, if I can say so.

    (It's more important to explain why Category II cannot allow tense alternation, in the first place, I know..)

    Talk to you soon, thank you again,
    Last edited by Roro; 11-Oct-2005 at 16:11.

  5. #65

    Re: who is online

    Let me continue.
    I'm personally thinking there are roughly two different approachs toward some 'general scheme' of semantic domains. Typological study and formal (logical) approach, if I may say so. I'm interested rather in the latter (trying to make use of it), but I'd like to quote here merely a list from The Evolution of Grammar (Bybee et al.1994), as an example of the former, typological study.
    .................................................. ...........................

    (p.46) A major goal of the current research was the establishment of a list of defined meaning labels that is suitable for characterizing the conceptual content of verbal grammatical markers in the languages of the world. To the extent possible, the labels and their definitions were based on the standard terminology in the linguistic literature. Meaning labels for some domains, such as tense and aspect, have been the focus of attention only recently. Our definitions of tense and aspect uses are based on Comrie, Dahl, Bybee (and the works cited in their books). Definitions and labels for modality and mood were based on Steele, Bybee, Palmer, among others.

    Our list of meaning labels remained open-ended throughout the study. [Thus the following lists are by no means 'coherent.' Anyway it seems to be useful as a general scheme, although it has several defects...added by R. I omitted several miner labels without notice ].

    .................................................. ..............................
    Appendix B
    A list of Meaning Labels with their short definitions

    I. Aspects and tenses: meanings having to do with the temporal setting and constituency of situations. The term "situation" is a cover term for event, activity, and state, in other words, those notions covered by verbs.

    A. Temporal deixis: those terms establishing the temporal setting of the situation with regard to the moment of speech. Usually called Tenses.

    present: the situation occurs simultaneously with the moment of speech.
    past: the situation occurred before the moment of speech.
    future: the situation takes place after the moment of speech; the speaker predicts that the situation in the proposition will hold.

    B. Aspect
    The following meanings describe the temporal contours of a situation. They are usually called "Aspects." They may be combined with any of the meanings that signal deictic time, either in the same morpheme or in combinations of morphemes.

    habitual: the situation is customary or usual, repeated on different occasions over a period of time. English used to is past habitual; English Nancy sings is present habitual.
    continuous: a single situation is viewed as in progress, as maintained over a period of time.
    iterative: the action is repeated on one occasion; usually restricted to dynamic verbs.
    frequentative: action occurs frequently, not necessarily habitually , nor necessarily on one occasion, as is the iterative.
    imperfective: the situation is viewed as unbounded in the sense that it is habitual, continuous, progressive, or iterative.
    perfective: the situation is viewed as bounded temporally. It cannot be simultaneous with the moment of speech; in the non-past it is sometimes interpreted as future.
    .................................................. ......................

    II. Agent-oriented modalities (or root modalities): internal or external conditions on a willful agent with respect to the completion of the predicate situation.

    ability: the agent of the verb has the mental or physical ability to complete the action of the main verb.
    desire: the agent of the verb desires or wants to complete the action of the main verb.
    (strong/weak) obligation: the agent is obliged to perform the action of the verb.
    permission: the agent is allowed to complete the action of the main verb: The students may check books out for two weeks.
    root possibility: it is possible for the agent to carry out the action of the main verb; i.e. s/he is able and external conditions allow it: You can get that kind of paper at Ulbrich's.
    intention: the agent intends to carry out the action of the main verb: Sam's gonna take Sanskrit next semester.

    .................................................. ......................
    III. Moods.
    A. Epistemic moods (or Speaker-oriented modalities): these markers have the whole proposition in their scope and indicate the degree of commitment of the speaker to the truth or future truth of the proposition.

    possibility: the speaker is indicating that the situation described in the proposition is possibly true. Some markers with this meaning also indicate future time: He may arrive late because of the weather; It may snow again tomorrow; She could have already taken it.
    probability: the speaker is indicating that the situation described in the proposition is possibly true. Some markers with this meaning also indicate future time: He should be home by now.
    inferred certainty: the speaker infers from evidence that the proposition is true: They must have killed a bear here (I can see blood on the snow).
    certainty: the speaker is emphasizing that the proposition is true.
    uncertainty: the speaker is emphasizing that s/he doesn't know that the proposition is true.

    .................................................. ......................

    Thank you so much for your attention. There is, however, more rigid, formal means to treat these meanings coherently (using formal metalanguage), I believe. Thank you again,
    Last edited by Roro; 11-Oct-2005 at 18:22.

  6. Key Member
    Other
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Feb 2005
    • Posts: 2,579
    #66

    Re: who is online

    "If modal "would" (habitual) admits a past and a present (I dare not say "tense") and other modals, both auxiliary ("will/would" #1) and aspectual (may/might, can/could, shall/should) admit the same, why then the two categories for "WILL": I. auxiliary modal and II. aspectual modal? Looking at the similarities (i.e., pastness) has brought us to a point where we should be asking, "What are the differences?", notably, "will/would" (category I). Shouldn't it be in category II?"

    Hello Cas & Roro

    If we want to understand the taxonomy of WILL/WOULD, we presumably have to separate out as many different meanings as we can, and then test each for strictly temporal pairing.

    It seems to me that the idea that modal verbs never carry tense might be based on confusion of the different flavours. It's easy to use one flavour of modal to refute the suggestion that another flavour has a temporal pairing, without even noticing the sleight of hand. (That's when we need Roro's meta-language.)

    As for the categories...I suppose category I isn't so much a flavour, as a whole new set of categories. Since categories II to VI can all be used in reported speech, we would really need to take each in turn and see how it looked when viewed through the prism of category I.

    Back when I've digested all your interesting additions...

    MrP

  7. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #67

    Re: who is online

    Me, three. Need to digest the feast.

  8. #68

    Re: who is online

    Hello MrPedantic, hello Casiopea,
    Quote Originally Posted by MrP
    If we want to understand the taxonomy of WILL/WOULD, we presumably have to separate out as many different meanings as we can, and then test each for strictly temporal pairing.
    Yes, I agree, entirely.
    In some cases, I think, will expresses some strong desire of the agent. According to Stowell, modals which convey the root-modal senses participate in a semantically viable present /past tense alternation. (Although Stowell mentions only 'the root-modal senses of ability and permission, but not 'desire of the agent' in that paper.)

    According to my dictionary, the following pairs (in which the aux. 'will' expresses some desire of the agent) show a tense alternation:

    [1] He will go despite my warning.
    [2] He would go despite my warning. (that is he insisted to go)

    [3] He won't give me an answer.
    [4] He wouldn't give me an answer.

    I remember that same kind of examples are discussed already in this thread, I mentioned them again because I didn't understand your explanations before

  9. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #69

    Re: who is online

    This is goooood. An added bonus for MrP:

    According to my dictionary, the following pairs (in which the aux. 'will' expresses some desire of the agent) show a tense alternation:

    [1] He will go despite my warning.
    [2] He would go despite my warning. (that is he insisted to go)
    Very nice find, Roro. Very nice, indeed. All right, then. Shall we place would #3 into category I, or nay?

  10. Key Member
    Other
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • England

    • Join Date: Feb 2005
    • Posts: 2,579
    #70

    Re: who is online

    Hello Cas and Roro

    I see from Roro's very useful post that "iterative" was the wrong word to use. Consider it withdrawn.

    I'm still a little uneasy about including reported speech in category I. Some kinds of "would" don't change when reported, e.g.

    1. "Would you like some cake?" (He asked if I would like some cake.)

    I still feel obscurely that reported speech should have its own set of categories...

    MrP

Page 7 of 8 First ... 3 4 5 6 7 8 Last

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •