[Grammar] Mixed Tenses Analysis

[CaseyA]

Topics in Health: Live Organ Donations - Youth Media Los Angeles Collaborative

To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago.

How do the verb tense of the main "event" (the centers accepting donors) and the verb tense of human participant "attributes" (the donors having health conditions) relate? I take "Some centers have accepted donors" to mean that the centers in the past accepted such donors and in the relevant present accepts such donors. Should I take "donors have a health condition" to mean that donors accepted in the past had health conditions at the moment of acceptance, and that donors that are accepted in the relevant present have health conditions now?

 

[Rover_KE]

You're trying to read too much into this.

Change 'who have' to 'with' and see if it makes sense to you now.

Rover

 

[CaseyA]

To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago.

Would it have difference meanings if "have a health condition" is replaced by "had a health condition"?

 

[Tdol]

It could suggest that they no longer have that health condition.

 

[Raymott]

It could suggest that they no longer have that health condition.

That could also suggest that they no longer had the condition when they were accepted - which is against the meaning of the original.

 

[CaseyA]

To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago.

If "have a health condition" becomes "have had a health condition", would native readers sense some extra meanings in the example?

 

[Raymott]

If "have a health condition" becomes "have had a health condition", would native readers sense some extra meanings in the example?

The meaning would be different, not extra.

 

[CaseyA]

The meaning would be different, not extra.

How different?

 

[Raymott]

How different?

Guess.

 

[CaseyA]

Guess.

A present perfect situation shadowed by another present perfect situation could mean the same as past perfect situation?

 

[Raymott]

A present perfect situation shadowed by another present perfect situation could mean the same as past perfect situation?

I don't understand that.
I meant guess the meaning of the following (the sentence you offered). It's quite straightforward and there are plenty of clues in this thread.


" To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have had a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago."

 

[CaseyA]

I really don't know.

 

[Raymott]

I really don't know.

True. You don't know yet. I'm asking you to think.
If you understand what these tenses do, you should be able to work out a meaning - even if it's wrong. If you don't understand these tenses, you need to go back to your grammar books, and try something simpler first.
I'd suggest you have a go at the meaning.

PS: Do you understand the answers that you've already been given?

 

[CaseyA]

To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago.

The discussion on another thread suggests that the present, present perfect, and past tenses would all work well for "have a health condition" without fundamentally changing the meaning of the example.

 

[albertino]

Topics in Health: Live Organ Donations - Youth Media Los Angeles Collaborative


How do the verb tense of the main "event" (the centers accepting donors) and the verb tense of human participant "attributes" (the donors having health conditions) relate? I take "Some centers have accepted donors" to mean that the centers in the past accepted such donors and in the relevant present accepts such donors. Should I take "donors have a health condition" to mean that donors accepted in the past had health conditions at the moment of acceptance, and that donors that are accepted in the relevant present have health conditions now?

(Not a teacher)
My understanding to "Some centres have accepted donors" is that the centres accept donors from the past up to the present, and "donors have a health condition" is a present state. It's just simple as that.;-)

 

[Raymott]

The discussion on another thread suggests that the present, present perfect, and past tenses would all work well for "have a health condition" without fundamentally changing the meaning of the example.

No, you can't make that inference at all - either from that thread or from anywhere else.

Look, I'm going to give you the answer. I'm sorry you didn't bother to have a go.
The meaning of a sentence is not something like, "The present perfect can be used with another tense .... etc."
The meaning of (in comparison with the others):
" To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have had a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago."
is that the centres have accepted donors who in the past had a health condition, but who did not have the health condition at the time they were accepted.
This is different from the meaning of all the other versions; and it's different because "have had a health condition" means something different in this context from "have a health condition" and "had a health condition".

 

[CaseyA]

To boost donation, however, some centers (A)have accepted donors who (B)(have/had/have had) a health condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago.

So, the tense of (B) must be read relative to the tense of (A), not the moment of writing (assuming that the moments of reading and writing are the same)?

 

[Raymott]

So, the tense of (B) must be read relative to the tense of (A), not the moment of writing (assuming that the moments of reading and writing are the same)?

In this case, yes. Because that makes sense. But it could be ambiguous.
If the tense of B was relative to the present time, you could have a sentence, "Some centres have accepted donors who have been dead for five years or more." This gives the impression that they accepted dead people. If you want to force the meaning of B to relate the present, you can use adverbs: "Some centres accepted donors who have now been dead for five years or more." This sentence would not have much application, but it illustrates that the tenses don't have fixed relation to each other. You must use the correct tense for each instance of a verb, and disambiguate, if necessary, with adverbs or other means.

 

[emsr2d2]

In 1980, I wanted to become a donor.
In 1975, I had had a heart condition.
In 1980, that precluded me from being a donor so I was refused.

It is now 2011 and I want to become a donor.
In 1975, I had a heart condition.
Now, in 2011, that is not a problem and they have accepted me as a donor.

The hospitals have started to accept people as donors who they would have refused in the past because they had had a heart condition.

The situation in 1975 is the same in both scenarios - I had a heart condition. In 1980, that precluded me from being a donor. In 2011, it does not.

 

[White Hat]

Let me step in here as a holder of a second opinion and share with you my thoughts on this matter, also as someone who teaches English.

" To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who have a condition, such as high blood pressure, that would have ruled them out a few years ago."

I see where the OP is coming from here. Like it was mentioned earlier, this sentence could be much improved if they wrote "donors with a health condition" or "donors suffering from a health condition" or "donors having a health condition".
To better illustrate the correctness of the original usage, I will tentatively replace "have a condition" with "play football", for instance. So the sentence would now read:

" To boost donation, however, some centers have accepted donors who play football". So, in general, those donors, accepted now, go in for the sport of football. If we write "donors who have played football", that might imply that they used to play in the past but not necessarily are playing now.

Although, having listened to quite a lot of native speech, I must admit that a native speaker could probably say "who had a health condition" in that case, but I don't think it's grammatically correct.