Small/minor/miniature/diminuitive Dutch masters

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5jj

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fivejedjon, with all respect, you don't seem to have tumbled to the idiomacity of the phrase in question.
Bennvis, you appear not to be reading what others have written. There are two completely separate issues here:

1. The word for artists who paint small pictures - miniaturists. Those who come from the Netherlands are Dutch miniaturists.

2.
An expression for minor Dutch artists, those who are not in the same league as Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer. Some people apparently refer to them as lesser Dutch artists, lesser Dutchmen, others as little Dutchmen.

Do you sufficiently understand what the thread-starter is looking for?
Do you? Milan wrote in the first post,

"Probably you've heard about a very famous family of Dutch artists who lived in Holland in the medieval times and created SMALL paintings, which were intended for private houses where there wasn't enough room for big works. In the Hermitage museum in my city there are a great many works by these masters and some of them were Rembrandt's contemporaries.

I'm not sure whether or not there is a specific word in English used to describe these painters.
"

We have not established whether there is a word/expression for this particular family. We have established that we can refer to them as Dutch miniaturists. Unless they are Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer, we can presumably also include them with the other Little/Lesser Dutchmen/Dutch Artists.

The word Little/Lesser has nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the works any of these artists painted.
 

5jj

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A Dutch master who created small paintings apparently.
No.

A small Dutch master can only be a small master who is Dutch, or a small male teacher of the Dutch language.
 

Curt Jugg

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No.

A small Dutch master can only be a small master who is Dutch, or a small male teacher of the Dutch language.

Tell that to Brian Sewell:)
 

White Hat

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Bennvis, you appear not to be reading what others have written. There are two completely separate issues here:

1. The word for artists who paint small pictures - miniaturists. Those who come from the Netherlands are Dutch miniaturists.

2.
An expression for minor Dutch artists, those who are not in the same league as Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer. Some people apparently refer to them as lesser Dutch artists, lesser Dutchmen, others as little Dutchmen.

Do you? Milan wrote in the first post,

"Probably you've heard about a very famous family of Dutch artists who lived in Holland in the medieval times and created SMALL paintings, which were intended for private houses where there wasn't enough room for big works. In the Hermitage museum in my city there are a great many works by these masters and some of them were Rembrandt's contemporaries.

I'm not sure whether or not there is a specific word in English used to describe these painters.
"

We have not established whether there is a word/expression for this particular family. We have established that we can refer to them as Dutch miniaturists. Unless they are Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer, we can presumably also include them with the other Little/Lesser Dutchmen/Dutch Artists.

The word Little/Lesser has nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the works any of these artists painted.

Well, the OP, apparently, hasn't sufficiently studied the topic. I have adduced enough evidence to prove my point. The term is related NOT ONLY to the size of their paintings, but also the themes they were conveying. Not ALL miniturists depict such themes. Therefore, logically the term "miniturists" doesn't fully lend itself to the idea in question. I don't want to get in any kind of altercation here with anybody. I just want people to call a spade "spade".
 

White Hat

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The word Little/Lesser has nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the works any of these artists painted.

"Most of these Dutch painters, a fairly conservative crew, are referred to as the Little Dutchmen, to distinguish them from the three great masters, Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer, who went beyond technical excellence to true originality."

http://books.google.ru/books?id=WEpc...men%22&f=false

This must be it. We just have to ascertain whether the guys referred to as the Little Dutchmen rejoiced in the names born by the artists who painted small pictures.
 

5jj

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Well, the OP, apparently, hasn't sufficiently studied the topic.
The OP asked a question.

I have adduced enough evidence to prove my point.
Which point?

The term is related NOT ONLY to the size of their paintings, but also the themes they were conveying.
Which term?

Not ALL miniaturists depict such themes.
What themes?

Therefore, logically the term "miniaturists" doesn't fully lend itself to the idea in question.
Which idea? I don't want to get in any kind of altercation here with anybody. I just want people to call a spade "spade".
And to call a miniaturist a little Dutchman?
On second thoughts, ignore my questions. I am leaving this thread, having said all that I can relevantly say.
 

White Hat

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So am I. Let him decide. We've done our part. Peace.
 

Curt Jugg

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No.

A small Dutch master can only be a small master who is Dutch, or a small male teacher of the Dutch language.

Although I made a frivolous response to your post the first time round, I would genuinely like to know why the two expressions are not analogous. If a small Dutch master can only be a small master who is Dutch, or a small male teacher of the Dutch language, why does the same reasoning not apply to a small businessman?
 

5jj

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Although I made a frivolous response to your post the first time round, I would genuinely like to know why the two expressions are not analogous. If a small Dutch master can only be a small master who is Dutch, or a small male teacher of the Dutch language, why does the same reasoning not apply to a small businessman?
While a 'small businessman' could be a businessman who is not very tall, it is more likely to be a person who runs a small business. 'Small business' is a commonly used expression for an enterprise that is not run on a large scale, and so 'small businessman' is easily understood. 'Small Dutch' is not used on its own; we can have only a small (not large) Dutch (nationality or language) something or somebody.
 

Curt Jugg

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While a 'small businessman' could be a businessman who is not very tall, it is more likely to be a person who runs a small business. 'Small business' is a commonly used expression for an enterprise that is not run on a large scale, and so 'small businessman' is easily understood. 'Small Dutch' is not used on its own; we can have only a small (not large) Dutch (nationality or language) something or somebody.

I see. Thanks very much for the explanation.
 

milan2003_07

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Thanks to everyone for the contributions and suggestions. When I was starting this thread I didn'r suspect that it would cause such a heated discussion. I've read all of your comments and I see now that the question raised is even more difficult than I expected before. To sum up, I can say as follows:

1) Before I decided to post my question here I consulted several natives who were my tourists and who had a very good level of education. One of them chose "Minor Dutch masters" and the other one "Miniature Dutch masters". I explained to them what the intended meaning was, but they assured me that their choice was correct.

2) The expression "Dutch miniaturist" is very clear and probably best conveys the idea of creating small paintings for private houses in Holland. Nonetheless I was wondering whether there is an adjective that can be used to describe this vast family of masters.

3) I think I agree that "Little Dutch masters" means that some artists from Holland weren't as famous and talented as Rembrandt and some others whose talent was also widely recognised. However I'm not very well familiar with the usage of the word "Lesser" and therefore here I have to trust native speakers who say that "lesser" has nothing to do with the size of a painting.

4) We should remember that even natives' replies can vary depending on a place they're from. For example, the words "miniature" and "minor" were suggested by Australians. Probably to them they sound OK in the context. However Britih people and Americans might think differently because of the existing differences between the languages. That's why it's important that people from all regions leave their comments.

5) We've questioned the existence of the word asked about at all. Well, I'm sure the word should exist since otherwise I don't think the word would be used in Russian. Probably it's not used too often, but it should be evident for experts on Dutch art.

6) What made me start searching for an appropriate word was the fact that the word is widely used in Russian. By the way, in my language we literally say "Small Dutch masters". Of course those who know nothing about Dutch art might think I mean the height of the people, but people who understand everything will realize what exactly I mean.

All the best

Bennvis, you appear not to be reading what others have written. There are two completely separate issues here:

1. The word for artists who paint small pictures - miniaturists. Those who come from the Netherlands are Dutch miniaturists.

2.
An expression for minor Dutch artists, those who are not in the same league as Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer. Some people apparently refer to them as lesser Dutch artists, lesser Dutchmen, others as little Dutchmen.

Do you? Milan wrote in the first post,

"Probably you've heard about a very famous family of Dutch artists who lived in Holland in the medieval times and created SMALL paintings, which were intended for private houses where there wasn't enough room for big works. In the Hermitage museum in my city there are a great many works by these masters and some of them were Rembrandt's contemporaries.

I'm not sure whether or not there is a specific word in English used to describe these painters.
"

We have not established whether there is a word/expression for this particular family. We have established that we can refer to them as Dutch miniaturists. Unless they are Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer, we can presumably also include them with the other Little/Lesser Dutchmen/Dutch Artists.

The word Little/Lesser has nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the works any of these artists painted.
 

White Hat

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Go with "little". If you had followed the links I provided, you would've come across this term, especially in the article written by John Charles Van Dyke and the one by the other two native speakers. I do feel it the same way you do since we speak the same language. I hope you now understand that it's not only the size, but the ideology too, that led to the creation of this term. Take care.
 

White Hat

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Here is more on "lesser":

"Vermeer is sometimes referred to as the “small” or “lesser” Dutch Master".

"Vermeer’s paintings seem to evoke a more calming reaction. They are absolutely stunning, but it is a different kind of emotion. It is an emotion that does not brew an inner storm but more a calm rain. This may be why he is known as the “lesser” Dutch Master; he does not invoke strong emotion, but calming serenity."

We've got to be able to look at an issue from different angles and try to learn about it as much as we can. Otherwise, we are going to murder what we are doing.
 

Tdol

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I am going to close this thread as it's heading for the rocks.
 
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