Small/minor/miniature/diminuitive Dutch masters

[milan2003_07]

Hello,

Probably you've heard about a very famous family of Dutch artists who lived in Holland in the medieval times and created SMALL paintings, which were intended for private houses where there wasn't enough room for big works. In the Hermitage museum in my city there are a great many works by these masters and some of them were Rembrandt's contemporaries.

I'm not sure whether or not there is a specific word in English used to describe these painters. In Russian we have one. In my opinion it would be incorrect to call them "SMALL Dutch masters" because that would mean their height was not big enough. Once one of the tourists (I'm a tour guide) suggested "MINOR Dutch masters", but so far I've heard some other native speakers say that "minor" in this meaning means exactly the same as "small". One more suggestion which I find closest to what I'm looking for is "MINIATURE Dutch masters". It would also be interesting for me to read your opinion about "Diminuitive Dutch masters".

What would you suggest I choose to convey the meaning of the size of their paintings rather than those artists' height?

Thanks

 

[Curt Jugg]

NOT A TEACHER

In fact it seems that "small Dutch masters" is the correct English term. This is the term used on the Hermitage Museum's website The State Hermitage Museum: Hermitage News and I have found an example of its use in this newspaper article by a well-known English art critic Rembrandt's pupil lost the plot | Showbiz

 

[milan2003_07]

NOT A TEACHER

In fact it seems that "small Dutch masters" is the correct English term. This is the term used on the Hermitage Museum's website The State Hermitage Museum: Hermitage News and I have found an example of its use in this newspaper article by a well-known English art critic Rembrandt's pupil lost the plot | Showbiz

Thanks for your reply. I don't think we should trust the web-site of the Hermitage museum because I doubt that the information there was written by a native and the English there is of dubious quality. I've taken a glance at the link you've posted and I've seen "Small Dutch masters" there. In fact that's a bit strange, though. "Small", as many of my English-speaking tourists said, has to do with people's height. At least when we hear the word "small" we first think about people's physical characteristics rather than their paintings. I'm also inclined to think that "small" is unidiomatic.

We definitely need more opinions. The opinions of famous people are important, of course, but not crucial because they can also make mistakes even in their native language. I'm interested in your personal opinions and explanations. Thanks

 

[5jj]

Dutch miniaturists?

Portrait miniature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[milan2003_07]

Dutch miniaturists?

Portrait miniature - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I don't think that's what I'm speaking about. The Dutch masters I've described painted different types of work, not only portraits. There were landscape scenes, stilllifes, everyday life scenes, and portraits. Different genres, not necessarily portraits.

http://www.google.ru/search?q=малые...=X&ei=WG1yTqqACMzqOcCzwKsJ&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQsAQ

 

[White Hat]

The term you are looking for is "lesser" - the Lesser Dutchmen.

Rembrandt and Claude proved that rustic life could provide
material enough for admirable sketches, but the work of the
lesser Dutchmen showed that average country scenery was by
itself an inadequate motive for elaborate oil - painting.
by C.J. Holmes (Full text of "Constable")

The phrase can be found in a number of sources online, including books.
Search for "lesser Dutchmen".

 

[Raymott]

I don't think that's what I'm speaking about. The Dutch masters I've described painted different types of work, not only portraits. There were landscape scenes, stilllifes, everyday life scenes, and portraits. Different genres, not necessarily portraits.

ìàëûå ãîëëàíäöû - Ïîèñê â Google

"Miniaturist" doesn't specify just portraits. I think this is the best term. None of your other terms work in standard English.
You could also say "Dutch miniature artists/painters", but not "miniature Dutch artists". You could probably talk about the "Dutch masters of miniature."
I don't think "Dutch miniature master" sounds good though.

 

[5jj]

The term you are looking for is "lesser" - the Lesser Dutchmen.

Rembrandt and Claude proved that rustic life could provide
material enough for admirable sketches, but the work of the
lesser Dutchmen showed that average country scenery was by
itself an inadequate motive for elaborate oil - painting.
by C.J. Holmes (Full text of "Constable")

The phrase can be found in a number of sources online, including books.
Search for "lesser Dutchmen".

Does not 'lesser Dutchmen' here simply mean those not as great as Rembrandt?

 

[Curt Jugg]

NOT A TEACHER

In a way, the term "small Dutch masters" is analogous to the term "small businessman", a term that has been in use since at least 1948, according to the Oxford English Dictionary Online. Here "small" refers to the size of the business, not of the owner.

 

[Raymott]

NOT A TEACHER

In a way, the term "small Dutch masters" is analogous to the term "small businessman", a term that has been in use since at least 1948, according to the Oxford English Dictionary Online. Here "small" refers to the size of the business, not of the owner.

No it isn't analogous. A small businessman is a man who has a small business. What's the derivation of "small Dutch master"?

 

[bhaisahab]

"Miniaturist" doesn't specify just portraits. I think this is the best term. None of your other terms work in standard English.
You could also say "Dutch miniature artists/painters", but not "miniature Dutch artists". You could probably talk about the "Dutch masters of miniature."
I don't think "Dutch miniature master" sounds good though.

I'd go for miniature/miniaturist. My wife is a miniaturist (amongst other things).

 

[White Hat]

Does not 'lesser Dutchmen' here simply mean those not as great as Rembrandt?

In his book, Paris, Critical Notes on the Louvre, John Charles Van Dyke refers to the lesser Dutchmen and cites their names: Terborch, De Hooch, Metsu, Steen, Dou, Brouwer.

Paris, Critical Notes on the Louvre - Google

 

[White Hat]

The word combination is also mentioned in this article by a Karelian author:

KomArt - Karelia travel and tourism

And here:

Taleon Imperial Hotel - The 5-th Issue

There are ancient vases and Byzantine icons, lesser Dutchmen and Sassanian silver.

 

[5jj]

Bennevis, none of the sources to which you have provided links gives the slighestest indication that 'lesser Dutchmen' has anything to do with painters of small pictures. One at least, Paris, Critical Notes on the Louvre - Google , strongly suggests the idea I mentioned above - less famous than Rembrandt, Hals, etc. Three native-speaking English teachers , one of whom has a wife who paints such pictures have suggested 'miniaturist'. That is what the appropriate word appears to be.

 

[White Hat]

The reason I started searching the word combination proposed by me is the fact that when I looked up the term "malyi" ("small", "little") in the dictionary, I came across the word "lesser". One collocation I found was the Lesser Antilles. In Russian they say "Malyie" Antilles. This urged me to search the string on the Internet. Whatever the correct version is, I'm keen to find out what it is.

 

[5jj]

This urged me to search the string on the Internet. Whatever the correct version is, I'm keen to find out what it is.

If you want the correct version for a painter of small pictures, we have told you -'miniaturist'.

 

[White Hat]

fivejedjon, with all respect, you don't seem to have tumbled to the idiomacity of the phrase in question.

Check this out:
Allied in sentiment to the “Little Dutchmen” and influenced in some measure by their style, was Jean Baptiste Chardin (1699-1779).
18th Century » Masterpiece Directory

The thread-starter has already told you that there is more to it than just being "miniturist".
We need a cliche. Type "miniturist Dutchmen" in your serach box. You'll get nary a result. Do you sufficiently understand what the thread-starter is looking for? We need a sort of cliche, a true and tried word combination that has entered the English of arts, something like "flying Dutchman".

Here is a book written by NATIVE SPEAKERS, Carol Strickland and John Boswell. Here is what they are saying on page 57:

"Most of these Dutch painters, a fairly conservative crew, are referred to as the Little Dutchmen, to distinguish them from the three great masters, Hals, Rembrandt, and Vermeer, who went beyond technical excellence to true originality."

http://books.google.ru/books?id=WEpc5tPgCU8C&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=%22little+dutchmen%22+painting&source=bl&ots=qnUyrKunbx&sig=rxr4HMLWydWdO9z4tU3O12sZ4YQ&hl=ru&ei=RmtzTs7YMYGe-wbo3JXVDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22little%20dutchmen%22&f=false

 

[White Hat]

Plus, this article (which is in Russian - you can always have it translated through, say, Arshavin or me!) says that "in the 17th and 18th centuries artists evinced a predilection for "little" (low) themes from everyday life as opposed to "big"-style art of "high" historical and mythological themes, and smaller-, "cabinet"-, format painting".

http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/es/81654/%D0%9C%D0%90%D0%9B%D0%AB%D0%95

 

[White Hat]

Steen, Jan. The Scullery Maid. Quite an interesting little picture, though a bit smooth and
approximating the work of such lesser Dutchmen as Van Mieris in its surface and in its rendering of small detail. No. 2243 is probably some sort of school piece.

by John Charles Van Dyke (Read the ebook Amsterdam, The Hague, Haarlem; critical notes on the Rijks Museum, The Hague Museum, Hals Museum by John Charles Van Dyke)

 

[Curt Jugg]

No it isn't analogous.

I stand corrected.

A small businessman is a man who has a small business. What's the derivation of "small Dutch master"?

A Dutch master who created small paintings apparently.