How to use "wish" in this context?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Rezafo

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
Some people in another forum are discussing this question, and still they are not sure about the correct answer, so I decided to post it here to ask the right phrase.

John went to a concert last month. The concert was boring and John wished [ at that time ] that the concert had been over / finished soon. And now he's narrating this memory to someone else now. How should we say it?

John: You know Kate, last month I went to a concert with some friends of mine, but It was not my cup of tea and it was so boring. I wished that it would be over soon.

Or, I wished that it'd been over soon. ?

How nice it would be if grammatical point was explained.
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
The first. He wished, at the time, that it would soon be over.

The second would be appropriate if the back-story were different. John's last train was at 11.00; the show finished at 11.05. He says to Kate 'I wished that it'd been over sooner.' In this case note that the "it'd" expands to 'it had' and not 'it would'. To have an 'it'd' that expands to 'it would', the context would have to change again. John explains about his train, and Kate says 'It'd have been better if the show had ended sooner'.

b
 

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
The first. He wished, at the time, that it would soon be over.

The second would be appropriate if the back-story were different. John's last train was at 11.00; the show finished at 11.05. He says to Kate 'I wished that it'd been over sooner.' In this case note that the "it'd" expands to 'it had' and not 'it would'. To have an 'it'd' that expands to 'it would', the context would have to change again. John explains about his train, and Kate says 'It'd have been better if the show had ended sooner'.

b
I was wondering, my university teacher taught us that the sequence of tenses doesn't apply to wish clauses. So I'm puzzled at what BobK wrote.
This sentence: 'I wished that it'd been over sooner.' should be wrong considering that you don't have to change tenses in wish clauses in narrating.
To illustrate this, let's say that Jon's at the concert right now and his train is due any time now, but he can't leave the concert and he thinks:
I wish the concert WAS over. (meaning that he likes the concert, but he wants to catch his train)
To my understanding this should be all right. Is that so?

Now, he tells about the concert to his friend Kate:
You know Kate, last month I went to a concert with some friends of mine, but it was pretty late and I wanted to catch my train. I wished that it WAS over soon [so that I could catch my train].
Is that correct?
Normally, I would let it go, but this post I caught my eye because I sentence like this was one question in a test we had to pass in order to pass a university course. So if I'm wrong, then the teacher was wrong too and such an elementary mistake should not be made by a university teacher.
 

billmcd

Key Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2009
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
I was wondering, my university teacher taught us that the sequence of tenses doesn't apply to wish clauses. So I'm puzzled at what BobK wrote.
This sentence: 'I wished that it'd been over sooner.' should be wrong considering that you don't have to change tenses in wish clauses in narrating.
To illustrate this, let's say that Jon's at the concert right now and his train is due any time now, but he can't leave the concert and he thinks:
I wish the concert WAS over. (meaning that he likes the concert, but he wants to catch his train)
To my understanding this should be all right. Is that so?

Now, he tells about the concert to his friend Kate:
You know Kate, last month I went to a concert with some friends of mine, but it was pretty late and I wanted to catch my train. I wished that it WAS over soon [so that I could catch my train].
Is that correct?
Normally, I would let it go, but this post I caught my eye because I sentence like this was one question in a test we had to pass in order to pass a university course. So if I'm wrong, then the teacher was wrong too and such an elementary mistake should not be made by a university teacher.

Everyone makes mistakes and don't forget "sooner". This was the easy part. How to present it to your teacher will be more difficult. :-?
 

Whoknows

Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2011
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
Canada
Current Location
Canada
I realize you are discussing the tense of the verb " wish" but it seems to me to be correct, you must use the subjunctive "were " not " was" after the verb "wish". I wish the concert were over so i could catch my train. The concert is NOT over. Therefore the subjunctive is needed.
 

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Maybe my post was a bit too chaotic. Or the example I used was not exactly illustrative so I'll try it again.
Let's say that it's the morning and I have to go to school but it's cold outside and I hate it when I have to go outside when it's cold. So I'd say to my roommate:
"I wish I didn't have to go to school toady."

Then, say two days later, I would tell him that I in the end I liked walking outside even though it was cold. What would he answer?
"And you said that you wished you didn't have to go to school." - no sequence of tenses applied (according to my teacher that's the only correct version)
or
"And you said that you wished you hadn't had to go to school" - sequence of tenses applied
Which one is correct?
 
Last edited:

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
I realize you are discussing the tense of the verb " wish" but it seems to me to be correct, you must use the subjunctive "were " not " was" after the verb "wish". I wish the concert were over so i could catch my train. The concert is NOT over. Therefore the subjunctive is needed.
In normal conversation, the subjunctive is optional in BrE these days.
 

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Really? That's hard to grasp for me. I thought he knew that kind of stuff with absolute certainty. I know that everybody makes mistakes, but he is some English enthusiast. He's got an MSc in teaching English, also passed CPE exam (grade A). He's been something like a English language God to me.
He teaches American English, but we can choose which form we prefer and use it. What's more, he always tells us if something is a matter of British or American English.
Here is a snippet from a textbook he wrote:

I wish I were an angel. --
-- He said he wished HE WERE an angel.

No change in tense is applied here:

He said he wished he [STRIKE]had been[/STRIKE] an angel.

By the way, he says that this "no change in tense" applies to all subjunctive clauses like:
I'd rather she asked someone else.
It's time we left
She acts as if she didn't know him.
What if we stayed here?
If they didn't have kids, they would break up.

Is that wrong too?
 
Last edited:

Rezafo

Junior Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Member Type
Interested in Language
Native Language
Persian
Home Country
Iran
Current Location
Iran
Thanks to all of you for spending time and answering my question. From different replies and comments which I got them all from different forums, I realize that native speakers wouldn't use a "wish sentence" in the situation I made as an example.

They told me we most probably put it in this way;

I couldn't wait for the concert to be over sooner,
or
using a wish in this way: I sat there wishing that the concert come to an end sooner!

But, knowing how to use wish in this way; narrating a wish sentence which has been said in the past, is worth considering and discussing.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
T
They told me we most probably put it in this way;

I couldn't wait for the concert to be over sooner,
or
using a wish in this way: I sat there wishing that the concert come to an end sooner!
No.

I sat there wishing the concert would soon come to an end
 

Barb_D

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Member Type
Other
Native Language
American English
Home Country
United States
Current Location
United States
Rezafo, I don't have anything to add to the grammar here, because I really am the pits at conditionals and these other finer points of grammar.

But I wanted to post because I wanted to commend you on your diligent study of the language. You are looking at really fine points of language and you are getting it. Even native speakers don't always agree with each other and it's not surprising there is disagreement wiht a few things your teacher has said), it sounds like you've got a great teacher who is helping you be enthusiastic in your studies.

Rock on!

(I would probably have said it like this: "And I sat there, wishing it would end soon." It wasn't a fleeting wish -- it was ongoing. I feel that way in a lot of meetings. I don't hope they will end soon; I know they won't. I just wish, for about half the time I'm there, that they WOULD end soon.)
 

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Rezafo, I don't have anything to add to the grammar here, because I really am the pits at conditionals and these other finer points of grammar.
Didn't you mean CarloSsS? I would suppose so since you talk about a teacher and disagreement about things he's said. And it was me who mentioned his teacher in this thread, not Rezafo. You also talk about the conditionals, which I gave as an example of what my teacher says about them too.

Either way, could anybody tell me if the "time change" (sequence of tenses) applies to sentences containing grammatical phenomenon called 'the unreal time'? Here's an example of such sentences:

I'd rather she asked someone else. - I said that I'd rather she HAD asked someone else.
It's time we left - I said that It WAS time we HAD left.
She acts as if she didn't know him. - I told her that she ACTED as if she HAD not known him.
What if we stayed here? - don't know how to change this into narrative, advise please.
If they didn't have kids, they would break up. - I said that I they HADN'T had kids, they WOULD have broken up.

Are my conversions to narrative correct? Should there even be any conversions in narrative?
Now that you told me he was wrong about the wish clause, I'd like to know if he was wrong about this too.
Thanks in advance.
 

5jj

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Oct 14, 2010
Member Type
English Teacher
Native Language
British English
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Here's my opinion:
I'd rather she asked someone else. I said (that) I'd rather she asked ..., I said I'd prefer her to ask...
I said that I'd rather she HAD asked someone else. I said, "I'd rather you had asked", "I would have preferred you to ask",
It's time we left - I said that It WAS time we [STRIKE]HAD[/STRIKE] left.
She acts as if she didn't know him. - I told her (that) she acted as if she didn't know him.
I told her that she ACTED as if she HAD not known him. I told her, "you act as if you hadn't known him"
What if we stayed here? - don't know how to change this into narrative, advise please.
I asked her what would happen if we stayed there.
If they didn't have kids, they would break up. - I said that if they didn't have kids they would break up
I said that I they HADN'T had kids, they WOULD have broken up. I said, "If they hadn't had kids they would have broken up"
.
As you see, I tend to agree with your teacher.

The slight problem is that if a speaker backshifts a first conditional sentence in reported speech, it has the same form as a reported second conditional.
 

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
So he was right about this. Thank you for your answer.
I know that we have already settled this, but still, even though I suspect what the answer will be, is this correct or not?

He siad, "I wish I were an angel". --
-- He said he wished HE WERE an angel.

No change in tense is applied here:

He said he wished he [STRIKE]had been[/STRIKE] an angel.
It's a snippet from a textbook my teacher wrote.

Can't this be just due to AmE and BrE differences, or just a matter of opinion? Similarly as "I wish I were an angel" vs. "I wish I was an angel". I want to be sure that there isn't something that I fail to understand regarding this wish clauses, before I confront him about this.
Thank you for your patience and answers.
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
So he was right about this. Thank you for your answer.
I know that we have already settled this, but still, even though I suspect what the answer will be, is this correct or not?

It's a snippet from a textbook my teacher wrote.

Can't this be just due to AmE and BrE differences, or just a matter of opinion? Similarly as "I wish I were an angel" vs. "I wish I was an angel". I want to be sure that there isn't something that I fail to understand regarding this wish clauses, before I confront him about this.
Thank you for your patience and answers.

Yes it can. As 5jj said a while back, the subjunctive is optional in current British English (though it's not optional in many idioms - such as 'Be that as it may... - most languages have an idiom with a similar meaning, similarly using a subjunctive: Quoi qu'il en soit, Sea como sea, Seja como fôr...'). So 'I wish I was an angel' is possible in Br Eng, as is 'I wished I was an angel' . 'I wished I had been an angel' is also possible, but it means something else: the reported wish is for a temporary state for that time only. This rarely occurs in this context, but it's quite common in the context 'I wished I had been a fly on the wall' [that is, an unknown eavesdropper whose presence had no effect on the participants]. The person reporting this wish obviously doesn't want to become a fly permanently, and the past perfect conveys this temporary wish.

b
 
Last edited:

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Thank you for your reply.
So if I get it right, the sentence 'I wish I was an angel' means I want to be an angel now. While the statement 'I wished I was an angel' means that I expressed my wish to be an angel sometime in the past, but my wish still persists.
Is that so?
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
Thank you for your reply.
So if I get it right, the sentence 'I wish I was an angel' means I want to be an angel now :tick: (In some national variants though you should use 'were'). While the statement 'I wished I was an angel' means that I expressed my wish to be an angel sometime in the past, :tick: ...but my wish still persists.
Is that so?
:up: :)
The bit about the wish persisting is debateable; I think the wish could be either temporary or permanent. But the use of a past perfect, in a context such as my 'fly-on-the-wall' one, makes it clear that the wish was temporary.

b
 

CarloSsS

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2010
Member Type
Student or Learner
Native Language
Czech
Home Country
Czech Republic
Current Location
Czech Republic
Now it clear to me. This language nuances never cease to amaze me. Thanks everybody who helped me to clear this up.
 

BobK

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jul 29, 2006
Location
Spencers Wood, near Reading, UK
Member Type
Retired English Teacher
Native Language
English
Home Country
UK
Current Location
UK
:up: :) Incidentally, one for the vocabulary book: 'a fly-on-the-wall documentary' - a TV programme or series that shows the inner workings of an enterprise/business/family... using footage provided by 'unnoticed' cameras. One of the first I remember was a series about Covent Garden Opera House, called The House. But it's a very popular genre now.

b
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top