when+present perfect

[ostap77]

I'm going to ask this question. Here's what I've heard from a native speaker born in Utah in conversation.

"When have you been to America?" Would it be something native speakers might say in conversation but they are never going to use it formal English?

 

[SoothingDave]

I don't see anything wrong with the question. What do you think is informal or incorrect?

 

[5jj]

I don't see anything wrong with the question. What do you think is informal or incorrect?

SoothingDave is American. Had I, a speaker of BrE, got to this thread first, I would have said:

I don't see anything wrong with the question. What do you think is informal or incorrect?

 

[ostap77]

I don't see anything wrong with the question. What do you think is informal or incorrect?

Hope no hard feelings taken. We've always been taught by Ukrainian teachers that a "when question" must be proceeded with the past simple. Would there be some kind of a hint on this issue?

 

[5jj]

Hope no hard feelings taken. We've always been tought by Ukrainian teachers that a "when question" must be proceeded with the past simple. Would there be some kind of a hint on this issue?

Yup.

Your teachers are not wrong. Normally, 'when?' = 'at what time in the past?', and a past simple is the appropriate tense.

However, it is possible to use 'when?' with the idea of 'at what time in your whole life, extending up to the present moment?'

The interesting (or annoying - depending on your point of view) about many of your questions, ostap, is that they probe the bounds of what is 'acceptable'. I recommend that you do not use the present perfect with a 'when' question - but it's not necessarily wrong.

 

[White Hat]

I don't see anything wrong with the question. What do you think is informal or incorrect?

Actually, we're not allowed to use the present perfect in "when" questions. That's why the OP asked about it. It's considered to be a mistake.
Think of it this way.
If you ask someone when, you already admit they HAVE done it at least once.
The correct question should be "When were you in America?".

There is a lovely discussion on this subject here.

 

[5jj]

Actually, we're not allowed to use the present perfect in "when" questions. Actually, nobody can stop us.
That's why the OP asked about it. It's considered to be a mistake.Well, no - not always.
Think of it this way. If you ask someone when, you already admit they HAVE done it at least once.
The correct question should be "When were you in America?". Not always!

There is a lovely discussion on this subject here.
Yes, there is. Read it, and you will see that some people there feel, as I do, that the present perfect in 'when' questions is possible.

@Bennevis - As I said to ostap, I do not recommend the use of the present perfect in 'when' questions. However, it is just not true to say that to use it is a mistake.

 

[White Hat]

@Bennevis - As I said to ostap, I do not recommend the use of the present perfect in 'when' questions. However, it is just not true to say that to use it is a mistake.

Well, it's your language. We can't go against how you use it in everyday life.

 

[emsr2d2]

I'm going to ask this question. Here's what I've heard from a native speaker born in Utah in conversation.

"When have you been to America?" Would it be something native speakers might say in conversation but they are never going to use it formal English?

I can't see anything wrong with it either. Admittedly, we would be more likely to say "When did you go to America?" or "When were you in America?" but we do use the present perfect with "When" questions.

When have you been depressed enough to miss a day at work?
When has he ever been that stupid before?
When have they had their photos taken by a professional photographer?

 

[5jj]

Well, it's your language. We can't go against how you use it in everyday life.

I'll argue against myself now. It's not 'my' language. I happen to be a native speaker of it and, all other things being equal, I may be expected to have a better feeling for it than a non-native speaker. However, while I am fairly confident that the opinion I have expressed in this thread will be shared by other native speakers, I do not expect you to take my word for it just because I am a native speaker. Let's see what a couple of other native speakers think before you give up.

 

[Barb_D]

Indeed, it's just not that odd.

A: Are you looking forward to your first trip to the states?
B: Oh, I've been many times before.
A: You have? When have you been to America? I thought this was going to be your first trip!

It becomes even more natural with "ever."

A: I don't like cooked mongoose.
B: Please! When have you ever eaten mongoose?!


And especially as a complaint:
When has he ever cooked you a nice meal and done the dishes? Never!
When have you ever said you're sorry for the way you've treated me?

 

[White Hat]

I'll argue against myself now. It's not 'my' language. I happen to be a native speaker of it and, all other things being equal, I may be expected to have a better feeling for it than a non-native speaker. However, while I am fairly confident that the opinion I have expressed in this thread will be shared by other native speakers, I do not expect you to take my word for it just because I am a native speaker. Let's see what a couple of other native speakers think before you give up.

What would we do without this forum? Keep teaching our students shallow English? There are lots of things non-native speakers aren't aware of. Indeed, you can Really learn a language Only if/when you socialize with its native speakers.

 

[5jj]

There are lots of things non-native speakers aren't aware of.

Indeed there are.

There are also a lot of native speakers who are abysmally unaware of what can be done with their own language.

When we remember what we owe to Biber, Chomsky, Close, Curme, Crystal, Fowler, Gowers, Halliday, Hornby, Leech, Lewis, Palmer, Quirk, Sinclair, Swan, Sweet and dozens of others, we must also remember what we owe to Christophersen, Jespersen, Kruisinga, Poutsma,Sandved, Schibsbye, Zandvoort and dozens of others.

 

[White Hat]

I am absolutely loving this book, the way it expounds the difference between when we cannot use the present perfect in when-questions and when we can. Now I got it. Reading in English is an amazing activity!

 

[5jj]

I am absolutely loving this book, the way it expounds the difference between when we cannot use the present perfect in when-questions and when we can. Now I got it. Reading in English is an amazing activity!

Could you try re-forming that link, please.; it's not working for me.

 

[White Hat]

Could you try re-forming that link, please.; it's not working for me.

It's a pdf file. It does open in Mozilla though. I've already downloaded it, and I'm going to take the printouts with me to the subway.

 

[SoothingDave]

Actually, we're not allowed to use the present perfect in "when" questions. That's why the OP asked about it. It's considered to be a mistake.
Think of it this way.
If you ask someone when, you already admit they HAVE done it at least once.
The correct question should be "When were you in America?".

There is a lovely discussion on this subject here.

When have I ever steered you wrong? ;-)

 

[ostap77]

It's a pdf file. It does open in Mozilla though. I've already downloaded it, and I'm going to take the printouts with me to the subway.

I've not been able to download it either in Mozilla!

 

[ostap77]

Actually, we're not allowed to use the present perfect in "when" questions. That's why the OP asked about it. It's considered to be a mistake.
Think of it this way.
If you ask someone when, you already admit they HAVE done it at least once.
The correct question should be "When were you in America?".

There is a lovely discussion on this subject here.

I guess you're not allowed because you have Mr. Me-Pu!

 

[White Hat]

Here it is.