Tag question: Or + positive auxiliary verb

[emka]

I have a question about a rather rarely used (it seems) variant of tag questions:

Breast is best. Or is it?

First, I was confused when I encountered such double-positive tags and didn’t understand them because this construction had never been covered in my school English lessons. At some point I figured out that it must be a rhetorical question to express doubt about the preceding statement.

Is it only used with the verb to be? Or can it also be used with other auxiliaries, as per the following sentences I have made up?

She has reached the zenith of her career. Or has she?
He went to collect his bags at the reception desk. Or did he?
He felt he should apologise. Or should he?

 

[Raymott]

I have a question about a rather rarely used (it seems) variant of tag questions:

Breast is best. Or is it?

First, I was confused when I encountered such double-positive tags and didn’t understand them because this construction had never been covered in my school English lessons. At some point I figured out that it must be a rhetorical question to express doubt about the preceding statement.

Is it only used with the verb to be? Or can it also be used with other auxiliaries, as per the following sentences I have made up?

She has reached the zenith of her career. Or has she?
He went to collect his bags at the reception desk. Or did he?
He felt he should apologise. Or should he?

This isn't a variant of a tag question. It is common in magazine articles. First comes some statement that is often taken for granted. Then a short sentence querying the statement.
It indicates that the following text is going to argue that the statement is not necessarily true.

You don't use this form in a conversation. I think you would most likely have got this from a heading or headline.

 

[5jj]

Note that a double negative is less usual. You will normally see:

She hasn't yet reached the zenith of her career. Or has she?
He didn't go to collect his bags at the reception desk. Or did he?
He shouldn't apologise. Or should he?

 

[emka]

This isn't a variant of a tag question. It is common in magazine articles. First comes some statement that is often taken for granted. Then a short sentence querying the statement.
It indicates that the following text is going to argue that the statement is not necessarily true.

You don't use this form in a conversation. I think you would most likely have got this from a heading or headline.

Thanks for explaining.
Yes, exactly, I came across this type of question in magazine articles and headlines. This explains why I have never heard it being used in any conversation, no matter how high-brow the topic or elaborate the speech. So if it's only used in written English and I were to express doubt or argue orally, what could I say instead? Something like: Really? But what about xyz? Did you know that abcde...?

 

[emka]

Note that a double negative is less usual. You will normally see:

She hasn't yet reached the zenith of her career. Or has she?
He didn't go to collect his bags at the reception desk. Or did he?
He shouldn't apologise. Or should he?

Note taken, thanks.:-D

As this follows the mechanics I know (negative, followed by positive), I wouldn't have paid much attention to such constructions because they look familiar.
But just to clarify:
This would also be used in written English only, wouldn't it?

 

[emsr2d2]

Note taken, thanks.:-D

As this follows the mechanics I know (negative, followed by positive), I wouldn't have paid much attention to such constructions because they look familiar.
But just to clarify:
This would also be used in written English only, wouldn't it?

I wouldn't say it's only used in written English, no. I have often used this construction when speaking.

 

[Raymott]

I wouldn't say it's only used in written English, no. I have often used this construction when speaking.

Interesting. In what context? I can imagine one might use it as a response:

A: As they say, "Breast is best".
B: Or is it?

Can you give an example of how you use it in conversation?

 

[~Mav~]

*** NOT A TEACHER ***

Interesting. In what context?
[...]
Can you give an example of how you use it in conversation?

I, of course, cannot speak for emsr2d2, but having taken a look at this thread, I immediately recalled a scene from the video game, "Jedi Academy". (Though it is a video game, I hope you don't mind this example, especially having two esteemed teachers with some Star Wars references (R2D2, and an icon of Master Yoda ;-) ) in our midst. :-D )

You can hear the utterance I've referred to at about 0:22

(The protagonist, who just entered the ancient tomb of a Sith lord, had turned to the dark side, and now she came to defeat Tavion, the leader of a Sith cult. So, it is a duel of two badass Jedi. :mrgreen: )

 

[5jj]

I'd rank video games with song lyics and sports writing when it comes to sources of good English. I don't think the 'or is it' construction is impossible in conversation, but you are more likely to hear it in scripted speech, in my opinion.

 

[emka]

This is getting really interesting. At least I now understand the construction and might even use it myself in writing, but will probably stay away from it when speaking (unless an overwhelming majority of native speakers on this forum states that it IS used in spoken English).

I don’t know anything about the Jedi world :-? and how authoritative or natural their way of speaking is. I just know that people who learn German and are keen readers of all sorts of literature sometimes come up with really weird stuff. When I point out to them that nobody would ever say something like that, they often refer to sources like a play by Schiller or a poem by some other famous author (where they have picked up an antiquated expression that might have been perfectly fine in the 19th century), or a song text where, for the purpose of rhyme or a pun, some unorthodox construction or word is used.

(Personally, I don’t trust lyrics any more, having put my foot as a student when arguing with my teacher about a mistake she had marked in my composition. It was about lay/lie, and I tried to save face by referring to Bob Dylan’s "Lay Lady Lay".):lol:

 

[5jj]

I just know that people who learn German and are keen readers of all sorts of literature sometimes come up with really weird stuff. When I point out to them that nobody would ever say something like that, they often refer to sources like a play by Schiller or a poem by some other famous author (where they have picked up an antiquated expression that might have been perfectly fine in the 19th century)

I'd guess that most of these are probably my generation. Most people who learn German today have never heard of Schiller.

(Personally, I don’t trust lyrics any more, having put my foot in it as a student when arguing with my teacher about a mistake she had marked in my composition. It was about lay/lie, and I tried to save face by referring to Bob Dylan’s "Lay Lady Lay".):lol:

If it's any consolation, many native speakers use 'lay' incorrectly.

Completely off-topic, but my then wife-to-be and I somewhat surprised the consul who married us by choosing Dylan's 'It ain't me, babe' as our music for before the ceremony, and 'Lay lady lady' for after it.

 

[~Mav~]

I'd rank video games with song lyics and sports writing when it comes to sources of good English.

It varies. Some role-playing games (e.g., The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion) use quite sophisticated English. (I should add that I have only played a couple of video games. ;-) ) Anyway, I just wanted to add something that might be interesting. I hope I won't have to repeat Master Yoda's words, "Failed I have." ;-) (The latter is intentionally incorrect English.)

I don't think the 'or is it' construction is impossible in conversation, but you are more likely to hear it in scripted speech, in my opinion.

Imagine that a wife has cheated on her husband (with a whole hockey team, for the sake of emphasis :lol: ), and everybody knows about it. How about the following:

The otherwise haughty (also for the sake of emphasis) woman walks into a store. The saleswoman to her:
Oh, the embodiment of faithfulness! ...or is it. *smirks*

 

[emka]

Completely off-topic: Ha, ha, I like your sense of humour. :lol: I bet the marriage celebrant had a grin on his or her face. Not only because of the innuendo of the lyrics but also because it would have been something refreshingly different from the overused Wedding March by Felix Mendelssohn-Bartholdy.

And yes, these people I refer to belong to the “mature” generation. Schiller wouldn’t ring a bell in many 20-somethings.

While I don’t know anything about you, I had already presumed that you must belong to the “mature” generation (me too) because of your dislike of certain things I also dislike, e.g. not capitalising “I” or using wanna/gonna etc. These things make me cringe – and then some people accuse me of being fuddy-duddy or a stickler, or at least a prescriptivist which, apparently, is a bad thing. ;-)

 

[emka]

Oh, the embodiment of faithfulness! ...or is it. *smirks*

This sounds natural to me (even spoken) because it is meant to be ironic and I can "see" the facial expression of the speaker.
I think I've got a handle on this type of or-question now.

What a useful and fun thread this has become...

Thanks everybody.

 

[5jj]

While I don’t know anything about you, I had already presumed that you must belong to the “mature” generation (me too) because of your dislike of certain things I also dislike, e.g. not capitalising “I” or using wanna/gonna etc. These things make me cringe – and then some people accuse me of being fuddy-duddy or a stickler, or at least a prescriptivist which, apparently, is a bad thing. ;-)

I am a born-again fuddy-duddy. I don't know whether many people would apply the word 'mature' to me, but I do admit to being ancient.