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  1. M56
    Guest
    #81

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roro
    Because we are dealing with 'be+p.p.' form here.

    'remain +p.p.' does not form a grammatical unit.


    ......Good morning.....
    Sorry? Are you saying that "The window remained broken" is not grammatical?

  2. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #82

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlainK
    What is "legged" in "a three-legged stool"
    It's a past participle, in name only, functioning as an adjective, and it's modified by the adjective of measure, "three".

    Quote Originally Posted by AlainK
    There is no such verb as "to wretch", so what about "wretched"? Is it a past "nominal" participle?
    It's an adjective. It has comparative and superlative forms: wretcheder, wretchedest. It also has an adverbial form and an a noun form: wretchedly and wrechedness. "wretched" is an irregular formation: from Old English wrecca (noun);Cf. wreccan "to drive out, punish."

    The same holds true for "naked". It's not derived from a verb. And here are tests that you can use to find out if a word has been derived from a verb (i.e., a true past participle):

    [1] Does it have a comparative and/or superlative form?
    TEST: stolen, *stolener, *stolenest
    TEST: naked, nakeder, nakedest

    [2] Does it have an adverbial form?
    TEST: *stolenly
    TEST: nakedly

    [3] Does it have a noun form?
    TEST: *stolenness
    TEST: nakedness

    Thanks for the data, AlainK. This thread is actually going somewhere.

  3. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #83

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    "The window remained broken" does sound a wee bit odd to me. But dialect variation could be at play here.

    M56, what's a "complex-intransitive" verb? The reason I ask, if intransitive verbs don't require an object, then what's "complex" about their structure?

  4. #84

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Hi,
    {M56}
    Sorry? Are you saying that "The window remained broken" is not grammatical?
    No, no.
    There are some criteria with regard to the treatment of 'grammaticalized form,' as far as I know. And we cannot apply them to 'remain+p.p.' form. I just wanted to say so.

    If you are interested, I'll try to expand on it a bit more, in PM, if you like.

  5. M56
    Guest
    #85

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea

    M56, what's a "complex-intransitive" verb? The reason I ask, if intransitive verbs don't require an object, then what's "complex" about their structure?
    Do you see anything complex about these:

    They made him a robot. (i.e. transformed him into one.)

    I find his argument persuasive

    Barry seems quite competent.

    Ordinary intransitve:

    I fainted.

    Ordinary transitive:

    They destroyed all the evidence.

    Complex intransitive:

    That seems like a good idea. (S-P-PC)

    The complex intransitive clause contains a predicative complement, but no object.

    Complex transitive:

    I consider this a good idea. (S-P-Od-PC)

    The complex transitive contains both type of compliment.

    Ordinary intransitive:

    I fainted. (S-P)

    Ordinary transitive:

    They destroyed all the evidence. (S-P-O)
    Last edited by M56; 23-Oct-2005 at 07:20.

  6. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #86

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by M56
    Complex intransitive: That seems like a good idea. (S-P-PC)

    The complex intransitive clause contains a predicative complement, but no object.
    So, the structure is called complex-intransitive, not the verb? I still don't get it. Could you give me a few more examples?

  7. M56
    Guest
    #87

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    So, the structure is called complex-intransitive, not the verb? I still don't get it. Could you give me a few more examples?
    Let's start by finding out if you know the difference between "simple structures" and "complex structures" in grammar.

    Do you? Also, do you know that both the verb and the construction can be labeled intransitive? "We hesitated" is an intransitive clause, "hesitated" is an intransitive verb phrase and "hesitate" an intransitive verb (see below).

    And, what type of construction, regarding in/transitivity, would you call each of these? The first is labeled.

    We hesitated. S-P (ordinary intransitive)
    We felt happy. S-P-PC
    We sold our house. S-P-Od
    We made them happy. S-P-Od-PC
    We gave them some food. S-P-Oi-Od
    Last edited by M56; 19-Oct-2005 at 21:11.

  8. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #88

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by M56
    We hesitated. S-P (ordinary intransitive)
    We felt happy. S-P-PC
    We sold our house. S-P-Od
    We made them happy. S-P-Od-PC
    We gave them some food. S-P-Oi-Od
    So, all of those examples are "complex-intransitives"?

  9. M56
    Guest
    #89

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    So, all of those examples are "complex-intransitives"?
    Did you miss the question?

    <<And, what type of construction, regarding in/transitivity, would you call each of these? >>

    I'll give you the answers all jumbled up and then it will be more fun for you having to sort out what goes with what. Remember, the first one is done for you, it's an ordinary transitive.

    ordinary monotransitive
    ditransitive
    complex-intransitive
    complex-transitive
    Last edited by M56; 20-Oct-2005 at 15:39.

  10. M56
    Guest
    #90

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casiopea
    So, all of those examples are "complex-intransitives"?
    To answer the part of the question you included in your e-mail (<What kind of predicate is "P"? >), but chose to omit here:

    P = predicator
    PC predicative compliment.

    In, "We felt happy.", "felt" is a predicator.

    And: <Could you offer examples where "P" is a complex-transitive?>

    Yes. As above, "We made them happy." (complex-transitive) S-P-Od-PC

    .............................

    Definition
    A predicator is the verb in its functional relation to the clause. It is comparable to the grammatical relations of subject and object.

    Discussion
    The term predicator can be used to refer to the verbal element in Subject-Ver b-Object constructions, that is, Subject-Predicator-Object. This avoids the confusion of using verb to refer to both a form and a function.

    Generic
    A predicator is a kind of

    ...syntactic function

    http://www.sil.org/linguistics/Gloss...Predicator.htm
    Last edited by M56; 20-Oct-2005 at 17:30.

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