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  1. M56
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    #1

    Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Does anyone disagree with this?

    It is well known that English has three kinds of participle which appear in the same form.

    1. The perfect participle.

    Dave has stolen these Big Macs.

    2. The past participle.

    These Big Macs were stolen by Dave.

    3. The adjectival participle (deverbalised)

    These Big Macs are stolen.

  2. Key Member
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    #2

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Hello M56

    Out of interest:

    1. Why not "past participle", in #1?

    2. Why "deverbalised"?

    MrP

  3. Editor, UsingEnglish.com
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    #3

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    If you're making a distinction between 1 & 2, what do you call 'is stolen'? It strikes me that if you want to separate the perfect aspect, then you might want to rename the 'past participle'.

  4. M56
    Guest
    #4

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by tdol
    If you're making a distinction between 1 & 2, what do you call 'is stolen'? It strikes me that if you want to separate the perfect aspect, then you might want to rename the 'past participle'.
    "Is stolen" could be verbal or adjectival, IMO.

    I would love to rename the past participle.

  5. #5

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Hello there, hello M56
    They all are, for me at least, past participles, used in a Perfect / Passive construction, or as a predicate adjective, respectively. ...no?

    How would you call this usage, M56?
    4. Those Big Macs have been stolen.

    ?

  6. M56
    Guest
    #6

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roro
    Hello there, hello M56
    They all are, for me at least, past participles, used in a Perfect / Passive construction, or as a predicate adjective, respectively. ...no?

    How would you call this usage, M56?
    4. Those Big Macs have been stolen.

    ?
    Thanks for your view on this point.

    <What would you call this usage, M56?>

    4. Those Big Macs have been stolen.

    I'd call it the present perfect. How about you?

  7. M56
    Guest
    #7

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrPedantic
    Hello M56

    Out of interest:

    1. Why not "past participle", in #1?

    2. Why "deverbalised"?

    MrP
    To me, the term "past participle" is inadequate at explaining how certain participles are used and for which purpose.

    "Deverbalise" means to convert from a verb into another part of speech.

  8. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
    • Posts: 12,970
    #8

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Quote Originally Posted by M56
    Does anyone disagree with this?
    I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be (dis)agreeing with. To me, its present definition stands.

    The term participle refers to a word formed from a verb that participates in compound forms, either verbal (1. and 2.) or nominal (3.)

    1. In the present and past perfect
    Dave has stolen these Big Macs. (compound verb)
    Dave had stolen these Big Macs. (compound verb)
    Dave would have stolen these Big Macs if . . . (compound verb)

    2. In the passive
    These Big Macs were stolen by Dave. (compound verb)

    3. As an adjective
    These Big Macs are stolen. (adjective)
    He writes about stolen kisses. (adjective)

    Additionally,

    is standing (verbal)
    a standing invitation (nominal)

    Note, there are only "two" kinds of participles in English: present -ing and past -ed/-en. The terms 'present' and 'past' are misnomers:

    EX: She was swimming yesterday. (not present tense)
    EX: He is a goldenboy. (not past tense)

  9. M56
    Guest
    #9

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    <[QUOTE=Casiopea]I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be (dis)agreeing with. To me, its present definition stands. >

    Then you would be disagreeing with what I wrote. Disagreeing with the idea of something being named "the perfect participle" and also something being named as "the adjectival participle".


    The term participle refers to a word formed from a verb that participates in compound forms, either verbal (1. and 2.) or nominal (3.)

    So you wouldn't add "or adjectival" to that?

    <3. As an adjective
    These Big Macs are stolen. (adjective)>

    That's what I would call an adjectival passive (an agentless passive).

  10. Casiopea's Avatar

    • Join Date: Sep 2003
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    #10

    Re: Three participles appearing in the same form.

    Well, it's kind of a mute point, no? Terms 1. through 3. (yours) describe the "past" participle's distribution. The terms work just fine. What problem do you see?

    Quote Originally Posted by M56
    These Big Macs are stolen. (adjective)

    That's what I would call an adjectival passive (an agentless passive).
    Ah, yes, it's ambiguous. I can get that reading, too, but not without additional context. As it stands, though, "stolen" describes "These Big Macs" (Cf. These Big Macs are fresh). If it's an "agentless passive" reading you're after, wherein "stolen" participates in a compound verb, try

    Passive: These burgers are stolen frequently.
    Active: People steal these burgers frequently.

    Furthemore,

    Statement: These burgers are stolen. (adjective)
    Question: By who? (awkward)

    Statement: These burgers are stolen frequently. (compound verb)
    Question: By who?

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