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Thread: "I" or "me"?

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    #31

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    I don't think saying "between you and I" hampers communication. I don't remember having trouble understanding a person using this misconstruction. It just sounds wrong to me. But as one thread I started recently shows this means little.
    You do yourself an injustice, my dear! Clearly, your instincts in this particular case are superior to those of some natives!

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    #32

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by l10nel View Post
    The examples in this discussion aren't good at illustrating why grammatical rules contribute to clear communication. One example that does is:

    A loves B more than C.

    A consciously assigned case to C (nominative vs accusative) helps the reader determine whether A loves B more than A loves C or A loves B more than C loves B.

    If it becomes less and less important in standard English to assign a case to C, the ellipsis after "than" will be ambiguous (hence bad for communication) and we'll have to forgo it and write a longer sentence to express the same idea.
    Indeed! Muddleheaded case-usage will certainly result, sooner or later, in miscommunications of this sort.

    I believe, therefore, that it behoves the better educated among us at the very least not to exacerbate the problem by allowing such misconstructions as *between you and I to pass unchallenged (or indeed those "authorities" who construct utterly spurious arguments in an attempt to inveigle us into accepting them!)

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    #33

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by philo2009 View Post
    I believe, therefore, that it behoves the better educated among us at the very least not to exacerbate the problem by allowing such misconstructions as *between you and I to pass unchallenged (or indeed those "authorities" who construct utterly spurious arguments in an attempt to inveigle us into accepting them!)
    People have been bemoaning the decline in standards in English since people such as Cheke and Mulcaster fulminated about the introduction of inkhorn tems into the language centuries ago. Conservative speakers of each generation have tried to conserve the language of the previous generation, though, for some strange reason, not the the language of the previous century.

    In my lifetime, I have seen several constructions pass from completely unacceptable in British English to widely used and accepted. These include: the split infinitive, the shall/will distinction, 'accusative' who, prepositions at the end of sentences and "It is me". "Between you and I'" will probably join this list, whether we like it or not.

    Discussion about whether such forms should be considered acceptable or not is often fruitless, because some of them will become acceptable whatever anyone says; some will not. We rarely know until after the acceptability has become established.

    The mere labelling of arguments as 'utterly spurious' does not prove them to be so.

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    #34

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Some moderately well educated people do not agree that we should be prescriptivist in our approach to language. These include Rodney Huddleston, (Manchester Grammar School, Cambridge Scholarship, first-class honours degree, PhD supervised by Michael Halliday) and Geoffrey Pullum, (first class honours degree, University College, London PhD).
    Their The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language won the 2004 Leonard Bloomfield Book Award of the Linguistic Society of America.

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    #35

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by philo2009 View Post
    You do yourself an injustice, my dear! Clearly, your instincts in this particular case are superior to those of some natives!
    It is, but in no absolute sense, darling. It makes me not sound wrong to some other natives. That's all good I get from it. My usage in this particular case doesn't make me more comprehensible.

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    #36

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    The mere labelling of arguments as 'utterly spurious' does not prove them to be so.
    Of course it does not. Whoever said otherwise?

    The proofs, however, concerning the spuriousness of one particular bit of sophistry on the part of Messrs. Pullum et al. are to be found clearly laid out in post #16.

    If you have any specific rebuttals to make to any of the points contained therein, I suggest that you make them in a clear and systematic fashion rather than slinging mud from the sidelines!

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    #37

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    It is, but in no absolute sense, darling.
    We must stop meeting like this!

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    #38

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    Some moderately well educated people do not agree that we should be prescriptivist in our approach to language. These include Rodney Huddleston, (Manchester Grammar School, Cambridge Scholarship, first-class honours degree, PhD supervised by Michael Halliday) and Geoffrey Pullum, (first class honours degree, University College, London PhD).
    Their The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language won the 2004 Leonard Bloomfield Book Award of the Linguistic Society of America.
    Oh, how impressive! The Leonard Bloomfield award! Hold me, in case I faint!!!

    Well, as they're such jolly well-educated chaps, obviously all of the holes I picked in their miserable excuse for an argument in favour of *between you and I and its ilk must be wrong, since they are clearly perfect beings who can do no wrong.

    Thank you so much for pointing out to me the error of my ways, and, in particular, for helping me to understand the principle that if someone has published a book, EVERYTHING in it must be right!!

    I'll never question anything I see in print again!!!

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    #39

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    My usage in this particular case doesn't make me more comprehensible.
    No, but it does make you more CORRECT; so you can derive some comfort, however slim, from that!
    Last edited by philo2009; 05-Dec-2011 at 12:34.

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    #40

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    "Between you and I'" will probably join this list, whether we like it or not.
    Not if I have anything to do with it, it won't!
    (What an appallingly defeatist attitude!! )

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