Page 7 of 7 First ... 3 4 5 6 7
Results 61 to 65 of 65

Thread: "I" or "me"?

  1. VIP Member
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Polish
      • Home Country:
      • Poland
      • Current Location:
      • Poland

    • Join Date: Jul 2010
    • Posts: 5,074
    #61

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    I suspected as much. But I thought just nom. and acc. were sufficient for the analogy. (I imagine most native speakers of English would have little idea of what genitive, dative, instrumental and locative are - I remember having trouble understanding what a locative was when first introduced to the idea in Latin class; though English does flirt with it in spellings like 'Marseilles' and 'Lyons - where the French don't have an s [but what do they know about it? ])

    b
    Well, if I were to say what the idea of the locative is I would be in a lot of trouble. I don't know if there's a general idea of the locative, at least in Polish. And I think the fact that I know no non-native speaker of Polish who has mastered Polish grammatical cases might be a clue that there isn't. It's a complete mess.

    PS: Actually, I do know a Belarussian who uses Polish cases correctly. But other Slavs I know do make mistakes.
    Last edited by birdeen's call; 07-Dec-2011 at 15:49.

  2. 5jj's Avatar
    VIP Member
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Oct 2010
    • Posts: 27,915
    #62

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Off-topic
    Quote Originally Posted by BobK View Post
    I remember having trouble understanding what a locative was when first introduced to the idea in Latin class...
    With the knowledge that I now have of grammar, and of how writers on grammar can twist things to suit their purposes, I have a sneaking feeling that the locative case in the Latin of the time of Cicero and Cesar was a little like the subjunctive mood in modern BrE. It had been one of the features of the language, and may well have still been real for some people; for most people it existed only in fossilised phrases.

  3. VIP Member
    Student or Learner
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • Polish
      • Home Country:
      • Poland
      • Current Location:
      • Poland

    • Join Date: Jul 2010
    • Posts: 5,074
    #63

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by 5jj View Post
    Off-topicWith the knowledge that I now have of grammar, and of how writers on grammar can twist things to suit their purposes, I have a sneaking feeling that the locative case in the Latin of the time of Cicero and Cesar was a little like the subjunctive mood in modern BrE. It had been one of the features of the language, and may well have still been real for some people; for most people it existed only in fossilised phrases.
    That's interesting. Do you have any sources about this? I would think that at that time the Latin noun-case system was still doing well, even in common parlance.

  4. 5jj's Avatar
    VIP Member
    Retired English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • British English
      • Home Country:
      • England
      • Current Location:
      • Czech Republic

    • Join Date: Oct 2010
    • Posts: 27,915
    #64

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    . Do you have any sources about this?
    None at all - it's just a suspicion. Unfortunately my own knowledge of Latin and Latin grammar is now far too rusty for me to investigate.

    I would think that at that time the Latin noun-case system was still doing well, even in common parlance.
    There is no doubt of that. I just wonder if, by this time, people were working on a de facto six-case system, with a few forms - particularly names of places - that were 'exceptions'.


    ps. I think if anybody is interested in following this up, we need to start a new thread here; Other Languages
    Last edited by 5jj; 07-Dec-2011 at 16:22. Reason: ps added

  5. BobK's Avatar
    Harmless drudge
    English Teacher
    • Member Info
      • Native Language:
      • English
      • Home Country:
      • UK
      • Current Location:
      • UK

    • Join Date: Jul 2006
    • Posts: 15,916
    #65

    Re: "I" or "me"?

    Quote Originally Posted by birdeen's call View Post
    That's interesting. Do you have any sources about this? I would think that at that time the Latin noun-case system was still doing well, even in common parlance.
    Note: maybe more information than general readers may want; should maybe have been a PM

    The words 'at the time' are problematic, but by the middle of the first millennium AD there seem to have been - in Iberia, Italia and Gaul - only one and a bit cases. (I say 'and a bit' because the more commonly used case was - as scholars would call it - the accusative (though the common -m ending tended to be dropped - as was beginning to happen much earlier [see Gerhard Rohlfs' Sermo Vulgaris Latinum, which shows this -m being dropped in graffiti and monumental engravings at Pompeii, and Elcock The Romance Languages. Elcock points to the few pairs (like copain/compagnon, gars/garçon, pois (as in porpoise - or 'pig-fish')/poisson) that show that at least a vestigial two-case system throws up fossils in French.

    So scholars of Vulgar Latin use the convention of quoting the accusative singular, but with the -M in brackets. It's more probable that Portuguese cão and chão derived from CANE(M) and PLANU(M) (all caps - don't ask why) than from canis and planus, although Classical Latin scholars will defend the nominative to the death!

    b

    PS Just seen 5jj's suggestion; consider my wrist slapped.
    Last edited by BobK; 08-Dec-2011 at 12:50. Reason: Resumed after battery failure

Page 7 of 7 First ... 3 4 5 6 7

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •