"I" or "me"?

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TheParser

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I have just read something written by one of the world's most famous writers. As a gentleman, I shall not give her name.

"They were advised that the Metropolitan Police had not found any information that concerned my husband or I in the data that ...."

This sentence is contained in official testimony given to a parliamentary committee that is investigating naughty behavior of some British newspapers.

How could she have made such a horrific mistake? (Especially since her books are devoured by young people!)


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bhaisahab

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I have just read something written by one of the world's most famous writers. As a gentleman, I shall not give her name.

"They were advised that the Metropolitan Police had not found any information that concerned my husband or I in the data that ...."

This sentence is contained in official testimony given to a parliamentary committee that is investigating naughty behavior of some British newspapers.

How could she have made such a horrific mistake? (Especially since her books are devoured by young people!)


THANK YOU
People make mistakes when under stress. I should imagine that describing the unpleasant behaviour of the press towards her children, in front of an official judicial enquiry, would have been a fairly stressful experience.
 

TheParser

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Thank you very much, Moderator Bhaisahab. That sentence, however, was not extemporaneous. It was part of a carefully written document that she apparently then read to the committee. As you so wisely said, we must be very understanding of her. (I am feeling much better now. When I first read it, I thought that I would have a heart attack. I guess it's a good lesson for learners such as I: even experts make mistakes.)
 

bhaisahab

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Thank you very much, Moderator Bhaisahab. That sentence, however, was not extemporaneous. It was part of a carefully written document that she apparently then read to the committee. As you so wisely said, we must be very understanding of her. (I am feeling much better now. When I first read it, I thought that I would have a heart attack. I guess it's a good lesson for learners such as I: even experts make mistakes.)
I've just watched the person in question's testimony on the BBC, while it seemed that she had written notes that she referred to from time to time, it didn't seem to me to be "a carefully written document that she apparently read to the committee".
 

5jj

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It's perhaps a case of hyper-correction. Many people have had 'me and my brother went to ..." corrected to 'My brother and I went to ...' so often that some begin to feel that '... and I' is the only possible thing to say/write all the time. As bhai mentioned, this writer might also have been under stress at the time.

There is also the point that popular writers are not necessarily sticklers for the finer points of grammar.

Finally, I would guess that at least half of the native speakers of BrE would not be aware of anything wrong with what she said. If it were pointed out to them, some would not care and others would simply feel that the person pointing it out was being rather silly.
 

TheParser

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I've just watched the person in question's testimony on the BBC, while it seemed that she had written notes that she referred to from time to time, it didn't seem to me to be "a carefully written document that she apparently read to the committee".


Thank you very much, Moderator Bhaisahab, for your comments. You are a true
British gentleman. We must, indeed, give the lady the benefit of the doubt. If anyone is interested, she or he (I don't have the courage to simply say "he") can find the lady's testimony on the Guardian's website. (In the "Media" section.) When you read the statement, it is obvious that it was carefully prepared.
 

TheParser

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others would simply feel that the person pointing it out was being rather silly.



Yes, Moderator 5jj, you are, as usual, correct.
 

5jj

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Yes, Moderator 5jj, you are, as usual, correct.
That 'silly' remark of mine was a general point, not directed particularly (- and I was saying what some other people might think!).

Personally, I cringe when I hear/see something like 'it concerned my husband and I'. As an observer of language, I accept that many people consider it unobjectionable these days.

As to the 'carefully prepared' statement - yes, it probably was. And no, they didn't notice the 'I'. You and I are getting past our 'best-by' date, Parser.
 

Rover_KE

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JK Rowling should definitely have known better than that, Key Member TheParser.

Rover
 

philo2009

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We have the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language to thank for this particular piece of idiocy (among others), which endeavours to argue for the 'correctness' of between you and I and the like on the basis of a ludicrous analogy with abbreviations...
 
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5jj

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We have the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language to thank for this particular piece of idiocy (among others), which endeavours to argue for the 'correctness' of between you and I and the like on the basis of a ludicrous analogy with abbreviations...
In their discussion of this on page 463, Huddleston and Pullum make no mention of abbreviations that I can find. They don’t appear to me to be arguing for the ‘correctness’ of ‘between you and I’, though they do say that a construction with I as final coordinate is “so common in speech and used by so broad a range of speakers that it has to be recognised as a variety of Standard English’
Huddleston, Rodney & Pullum, Geoffrey K (2002) The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Cambridge: CUP
 

philo2009

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In their discussion of this on page 463, Huddleston and Pullum make no mention of abbreviations that I can find.

Take a look at p.9.
 

5jj

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Take a look at p.9.
I have just looked at page 9 - three times. I can't see any mention of abbreviations there. Perhaps you'd care to quote the words you are talking about (with page reference).

Just to be sure that we are not referring to different books, my copy is the 2002 edition,
 

philo2009

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I have just looked at page 9 - three times. I can't see any mention of abbreviations there. Perhaps you'd care to quote the words you are talking about (with page reference).

Just to be sure that we are not referring to different books, my copy is the 2002 edition,

Same edition, p9 - right at the bottom, example sentence [4].

P.S. a slight erratum on my part: for 'abbreviations' read 'contractions'.
 
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5jj

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We have the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language to thank for this particular piece of idiocy (among others), which endeavours to argue for the 'correctness' of between you and I and the like on the basis of a ludicrous analogy with abbreviations...
a slight erratum on my part: for 'abbreviations' read 'contractions'.
It seems to me that H&P's section on 'Spurious external justification'(pps 8-11) is an attempt to show the lack of legitimacy of prescriptive grammarians who 'backed up their pronouncements with appeals to entirely extraneous considerations'. Their argument about contractions, which they do not relate to 'between you and I' is interesting. Dismissal of it as 'ludicrous' is hardly a counter-argument.

It would be ludicrous to attempt to justify the correctness of 'between you and I' on the grounds of an analogy with contractions, but H& P make no such attempt

Huddleston, Rodney & Pullum, Geoffrey K (2002, 8-11, 463) The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language, Cambridge: CUP
 

philo2009

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Their argument about contractions, which they do not relate to 'between you and I' is interesting.

Yes, if by 'interesting' you mean 'piffle'...

It would be ludicrous to attempt to justify the correctness of 'between you and I' on the grounds of an analogy with contractions,

I'm relieved to hear that we can at least agree on that much...


but H& P make no such attempt


Oh, they don't, do they not?

Well, pausing just momentarily to wonder exactly what constitutes 'making an attempt' in your view, I would respond thus: on p10, lines 1-5 "The sequence ...[3a] and [3b]" effectively assert that there is a precedent for reckoning that rules of morphology regarding a given pronoun as a single form can differ from those regarding the same pronoun occurring in a compound, and that that precedent is the so-called rule of grammar cited at the bottom of p9.concerning contractions.

In short, they stop just one hair's breadth short of saying "[3b] is grammatically perfectly OK in our view, and you pedantic old fusspots who've been objecting to it for years had better jolly well knuckle under and accept it!"

Yes, I think that definitely rates in most people's book as an 'attempt'...

And now for some reasons why I find their argument ludicrous:

1) If you're going to support a case for suggesting/implying/hinting at (call it what you will) the grammatical acceptability of one construction by analogy with another, you had better ensure that your analogy actually concerns grammar. The use/non-use of contractions is an issue of either pronunciation or orthography, depending on whether we are dealing with the spoken or written form.

Whether one elects to carefully enunciate the 'you are' of their [4b] as two distinct words or to lazily conflate them into something sounding like (and consequently recorded in written form as) one makes absolutely no difference from the point of view of grammar: 'you' and 'are' remain, irrespective of such incidentals of execution, two grammatically distinct words, namely one pronoun and one verb respectively.**

2) If you're going to support a case for suggesting/implying/hinting at the grammatical acceptability of one construction by analogy with another, you had also better ensure that you compare like with like. In suggesting a parallelism between

[3a] They invited me to lunch.

and

[4a] I don't know if you're eligible

they are implying equality of status between [3a], a formally flawless sentence (definable, for the purposes of this analysis, as one acceptable to all users of the language at up to and including the highest level of formality) and a flawed one, [4a], since the use of contractions will not be considered acceptable by all users in all conceivable circumstances (e.g. in legal documents).

Thus their implicit assertion that the sequence [4a] to [4b] - in reality that of slightly flawed to even more flawed sentence - can be held up as in any way mirroring that realized by [3a] to [3b] (flawless to flawed) is simply untenable.

3) (And I've saved the most ludicrous bit till last) If you're going to support a case for suggesting/implying/hinting at the grammatical acceptability of one construction by analogy with another, you had better not shoot yourself in the foot by rejecting analogy in principle as a valid basis of grammatical argumentation (see p9, paragraph beginning "Prescriptivists, however,...").

So, overall, I would say that the word 'ludicrous' sums up their position rather nicely!!

**I would also be grateful if Messrs. Pullum et al. would explain at precisely what point between a perfectly enunciated "you are" and a completely contracted "you're" - since a little experimentation shows there to be any number of phonologically indistinct midway stages between the two - sentence [3b] goes from being correct to incorrect.
 
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5jj

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If you are basing some of your argument on such ideas as 'I don't know if you're eligible' being formally flawed, I see no point in continuing the discussion.
 

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I can't seem to find a definition or mention of the notion of "formal flaw" in this grammar.

And, doesn't this grammar avoid passing judgement on "correctness" of a construction altogether, and instead assign labels such as standard (formal vs. informal), standard (at least to some speakers), and nonstandard?
 

5jj

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I can't seem to find a definition or mention of the notion of "formal flaw" in this grammar.

And, doesn't this grammar avoid passing judgement on "correctness" of a construction altogether, and instead assign labels such as standard (formal vs. informal), standard (at least to some speakers), and nonstandard?
I agree that descriptive grammarians avoid passing judgement on the 'correctness' of a construction. Most writers use the words formal(ly) in two ways:

1. with reference to the form or structure. Thus, "I have been being cooked for two hundred years" is formally correct. There are no grammatical errors in the way the words are put together. The fact that the words are pretty meaningless is irrelevant to a discussion about the syntax. In this sense, there is no 'formal flaw' in "I don't know if you're eligible".

2, with reference to the formality or style. Thus "I wish to offer my sincere apologies" is more formal than "Sorry, mate". In this sense, one can say that "I don't know if you're eligible" is less formal/more informal than "I do not know if you are eligible".
 

l10nel

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Thanks! I understand that "formally flawed" here refers to "formality" level. But my question was, does this grammar define/mention a sentence as being formally flawed because it isn't acceptable in the formal style (e.g. legal)? I couldn't find this notion in the conceptual index. I'd be surprised if this descriptive grammar describes an informal construction as "flawed".
 
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