could actually make you a bit crazy and depressed

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keannu

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I didn't care much about the difference "low possibility" and "conditional" of "could", but lately it came to confuse me. Does this "could" mean "low possibility" or "conditional"?
If it is "low possibility", it means "falling in love has a lower(some) possibility to make you ...."
If it is "conditional", it means "If you fell in love, it could make you..."
The two seem to have no difference, but do I have to care about it?

ex)Rather than making you happy, falling in love could actually make you a bit crazy and depressed. According to a study in Italy, people who have recently fallen in love show signs of "Obssessive Compulsive Disorder" or OCD. ..One symptom of OCD appears to be unusually low levels of serotonin, which leads to anxiety and depression. Italian students who claimed they had recently fallen in love were found to have 40% lower levels of serotonin than their peers....So it is not surprising that after about one year, many couples get bored with their relationship. It means the chemical effect of love is over.
 

BobSmith

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If it is "conditional", it means "If you fell in love, it could make you..."

[AmE - not a teacher]

IMO, you've not made your case for the example above because you've simply repeated the "could". You should have said

If it is "conditional", it means "If you fell in love, it then will make you..."

The answer to your question lies within the text:

"falling in love could actually make"
 

keannu

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Thanks a lot! You seem to say if "could" is to be conditional, conditional should be expressed explicitly or implicitly and a sentence of possibility is based on facts. But sometimes it's hard to tell if a sentence is a conditional or not.
For example,

a)If he came to the party tomorrow, his girlfriend (woud/could/might) come to the party, too. - conditional
b)(without any if clause) His girl (woud/could/might) come to the party. - (low possiblity or uncertain presumption)

In grammar books, similar cases to b are defined as low possibility or uncertain presumption. How can I tell if a sentence like b is conditional or low possibility(uncertain presumption)? What is the standard to tell a conditional from low possibility?
 
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Raymott

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Thanks a lot! You seem to say if "could" is to be conditional, conditional should be expressed explicitly or implicitly and a sentence of possibility is based on facts. But sometimes it's hard to tell if a sentence is a conditional or not.
For example,

a)If he came to the party tomorrow, his girlfriend (woud/could/might) come to the party, too. - conditional
b)(without any if clause) His girl (woud/could/might) come to the party. - (low possiblity or uncertain presumption)

In grammar books, similar cases to b are defined as low possibility or uncertain presumption. How can I tell if a sentence like b is conditional or low possibility(uncertain presumption)? What is the standard to tell a conditional from low possibility?
Do the books actually say "low possibility"? The phrase should be "low probability". A thing is either possible or not possible. (To me, "could" doesn't ascribe any degree of probability other than > 0%, so I disagree with the use of "low probability" anyway. But that is the term you mean.)

Something that has a low probability of occurring is always conditional (in reality, if not in grammar). If something might happen, but might not, there are obviously conditions that must be right for that event to occur. In most cases, this doesn't have to be explicitly expressed as being a conditional event. (The conditions mightn't be known, or they might be too numerous to bother making explicit.
"I could/might be answering questions here in exactly 24 hours time." This event has a probability of > 0% and < 100%, but the conditions which would make it factual are not worth elaborating upon. It's only when there is an important condition that needs communicating that a condition would be added. For example, maybe I'm terminally ill; the condition might be "if I'm still alive". Maybe I'm expecting guests; the condition might be "if my guests don't arrive". But in the normal course of events, the conditions are much more mundane. But the "could" is inherently conditional.
 

keannu

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It seems low probability(possibility or whatever) is another name of conditional(hypothesis) when there is no distinct if-clause. I've been too much worried about the label difference of "would/could/might" without any conditional if-clause. But now I realize, from what you said, that it is only label difference(you label explict conditional as conditional and implicit conditional as low probability)
I think ,from now on, I can treat any would/could/might meaning low probability(not past-related meanings and without if-clause) as conditionals(inherently) as well.

ENGLISH PAGE - Could(I'm adding this to show it's labelled possibility but it doesn't matter)
could
possibility

1. John could be the one who stole the money.
2. John could have been the one who stole the money.
3. John could go to jail for stealing the money.

1. Mary couldn't be the one who stole the money.
2. Mary couldn't have been the one who stole the money.
3. Mary couldn't possibly go to jail for the crime.

could
conditional
of can

1. If I had more time, I could travel around the world.
2. If I had had more time, I could have traveled around the world.
3. If I had more time this winter, I could travel around the world.

1. Even if I had more time, I couldn't travel around the world.
2. Even if I had had more time, I couldn't have traveled around the world.
3. Even if I had more time this winter, I couldn't travel around the world.

 

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Raymott

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The Merriam-Webster Dictionary seems to agree with you:

1: the condition or fact of being possible

while its own example seems to belie its definition:

Examples of POSSIBILITY

  • There is a strong possibility that I will not be chosen for the job.

(emphasis mine)
- Possibility - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
I don't mind "strong possibility". But when someone starts using 'high' or 'low', they're talking about numbers - probability.
We don't talk about there being a "possibility of 30%".

[h=2]prob·a·bil·i·ty[/h] noun \ˌprä-bə-ˈbi-lə-tē\
plural prob·a·bil·i·ties




[h=2]Definition of PROBABILITY[/h]1
: the quality or state of being probable

2
: something (as an event or circumstance) that is probable

3
a (1) : the ratio of the number of outcomes in an exhaustive set of equally likely outcomes that produce a given event to the total number of possible outcomes (2) : the chance that a given event will occurb : a branch of mathematics concerned with the study ofprobabilities

4
: a logical relation between statements such that evidence confirming one confirms the other to some degree






[h=2]Examples of PROBABILITY[/h]
  • There is a low probability that you will be chosen.
  • There is some probability of rain tomorrow.
  • With the dark clouds moving in, rain seems more like a probability than a possibility.
  • The probability of a coin coming up heads is one out of every two tries.

 
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Raymott

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It seems low probability(possibility or whatever)
The words mean different things. 'Whatever' seems to be a rather cavalier attitude from a learner of English to what is a very real difference of meaning and usage.

is another name of conditional(hypothesis) when there is no distinct if-clause. I've been too much worried about the label difference of "would/could/might" without any conditional if-clause. But now I realize, from what you said, that it is only label difference(you label explict conditional as conditional and implicit conditional as low probability)
I wish you'd also realize that just because something is conditional or uses 'could', it does not imply that the probability is low.

I think ,from now on, I can treat any would/could/might meaning low probability(not past-related meanings and without if-clause) as conditionals(inherently) as well.

ENGLISH PAGE - Could(I'm adding this to show it's labelled possibility but it doesn't matter)

It does matter. There's nothing here that's labelled "low possibility". It seems to be showing two uses of could - one for possibility, and one as a conditional form of can.
"John could be the one who stole the money". The page quite rightly suggests that this indicates that it is possible that John stole the money. It does not say that it is probable that John stole the money, nor does it state that the probability is low that John stole the money. The probability that this has occurred is not addressed.

could
possibility
1. John could be the one who stole the money.
2. John could have been the one who stole the money.
3. John could go to jail for stealing the money.
1. Mary couldn't be the one who stole the money.
2. Mary couldn't have been the one who stole the money.
3. Mary couldn't possibly go to jail for the crime.
could
conditional
of can
1. If I had more time, I could travel around the world.
2. If I had had more time, I could have traveled around the world.
3. If I had more time this winter, I could travel around the world.
1. Even if I had more time, I couldn't travel around the world.
2. Even if I had had more time, I couldn't have traveled around the world.
3. Even if I had more time this winter, I couldn't travel around the world.
I'm surprised that this is one aspect of English that you're not even vaguely interested in. There are two words - "possibility" and "probability", and they mean different things. Aren't you even remotely interested in using them correctly?
If something can happen, it's possible. If something is possible, you might be able to work out it's probability. Many things are possible but not probable. Hence the words can't have the same meaning.

 

keannu

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Your explanation was quite impressive. Now I understand the concept of probability much better than before.
I feel kind of stupid if I ask this question to you as I've felt I''m already over it. It's a similar question.

ex)...People from California would pronounce cot and caught in the same way...
"would" in if-clause conditionals means a certainty in a specific condition like "will".
For example, "If she came to the party tomorrow, I would be really glad". Doesn't this "would" still function as a certain "will" in an imaginary situation? But what I'm always confused about is if there's no if-clause like in ex)"People from California would pronounce cot and caught in the same way", does it mean a certainty on the condition as in "If there were the people from California, they would pronounce cot and caught in the same way" or low probability like "could" without if-clause?

Many grammar books say "if clause" can be implied as a subject or an adverb phrase, so when I see sentences without if-clause, I try to think if the subject is a conditional-implying one or not. Okay, the summarized question is the following.

1. If you met Californians, they would pronounce cot and caught in the same way.(certainty = almost 100% if the condition is met)
2. Californians would pronounce cot and caught in the same way. (certainty or low probability?? Is "Californians" an implied condition to replace if-clause? )
3. You would see Californians pronounce cot and caught in the same way.(low probability??? without any condition?)
 
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keannu

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I seem to have given you too many questions, burdening you. Sorry. Okay, just one question.
Is this "Californians" a conditional-implying word? So is this "would" lower probability than "will" or a certainty like "will"?
ex)Californians would pronounce cot and caught in the same way.
 

Raymott

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I seem to have given you too many questions, burdening you.
No, you posted the above less than 24 hours ago (just). I'm not always here.

Sorry. Okay, just one question.
Is this "Californians" a conditional-implying word? So is this "would" lower probability than "will" or a certainty like "will"?
ex)Californians would pronounce cot and caught in the same way.
No, this is an example of using "would" as an unspecified conditional, as I explained before. The speaker means "Californians do pronounce cot and caught in the same way". But the speaker does not want to make such an emphatic statement that almost begs to be challenged, with the speaker having to prove it.
Review the posts where I explain why we say, "I would say ... "
 

Raymott

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ex)...People from California would pronounce cot and caught in the same way...
"would" in if-clause conditionals means a certainty in a specific condition like "will".
For example, "If she came to the party tomorrow, I would be really glad". Doesn't this "would" still function as a certain "will" in an imaginary situation?
Yes, that's what a conditional is. It would happen if that situation existed. You can also say, "If she comes to the party tomorrow, I will be really glad." This is still conditional. If she doesn't come, you won't be glad.

But what I'm always confused about is if there's no if-clause like in ex)"People from California would pronounce cot and caught in the same way", does it mean a certainty on the condition as in "If there were the people from California, they would pronounce cot and caught in the same way" or low probability like "could" without if-clause?
No, I've explained that use of 'would' - more than once, I'm sure.

Many grammar books say "if clause" can be implied as a subject or an adverb phrase, so when I see sentences without if-clause, I try to think if the subject is a conditional-implying one or not. Okay, the summarized question is the following.

1. If you met Californians, they would pronounce cot and caught in the same way.(certainty = almost 100% if the condition is met)
Yes, that is one possible "if" clause. But it's arbitrary. The if clause is not defined, therefore you can't define it.

2. Californians would pronounce cot and caught in the same way. (certainty or low probability?? Is "Californians" an implied condition to replace if-clause? )
Do you mean, "If you were Californian, you would pronounce them that way"? No, it doesn't mean that, although that would logically follow.

3. You would see Californians pronounce cot and caught in the same way.(low probability??? without any condition?)
Yes, again this is implied by the original statement, but it's not what it means.
I would suggest that when you see a "would" clause without an "if" clause, you should ask yourself whether it simply means that the speaker does not want to be so emphatic as to claim that this is the final and correct word on the matter.
 

keannu

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Thanks a lot, it was really helpful. To further study "I would say", I searched with "raymott & I would say", but it returned no result due to too many parameters. How can I see those posts? Will you just let me know the post links? Sorry to bother you...
 

Raymott

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Thanks a lot, it was really helpful. To further study "I would say", I searched with "raymott & I would say", but it returned no result due to too many parameters. How can I see those posts? Will you just let me know the post links? Sorry to bother you...
Look at this thread for others' opinions:
[h=3]I agree/I would agree ?[/h]
If you can't find my relevant past posts, I probably won't find them either. I would suggest that you keep your eyes open for future posts with "would" in their title to get more understanding of this.
 

keannu

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Okay, "Californians.."doesn't imply any conditional, but the following two do, and my confusion derives from the fact in these two cases, "would" functions like "will", a certainty, but in without if-clause like "Californians..." "would" seems to function as a euphemism to suggest your opinion carefully.
In other materials I found "I would say.." as an uncertain euphemism, and you say it's strong, and I think probably you meant the same thing as other materials.
In short, I thought "would" implying conditional means a strong possibility while "would" not implying conditional means an uncertainty, so it was hard to tell which is which.

1. You are so stupid to marry such a drunkard. I wouldn't marry him. (If I were you, I wouldn't...) - if clause implied
2. He wrote such an offensive remark in the article, and I wouldn't have written so. (If I had been(were) him, I wouldn't...) - if-clause implied.
3. Californians would pronounce cot and caught in the same way(no if-clause implied, euphemism)
 
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keannu

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I'm sorry I understood your teaching pretty much, but something is not clear.
I posted the following one, and does this "would" here mean non-emphatic euphemistic expression as you taught me? Or does it mean a conditional as in "If it were in that context, it would mean..."? Sentences with this kind of adverb phrases always confuse me.

Q: Does "[FONT=한컴바탕] numbering in the thousands[/FONT]" mean "its number was thousands"? But I feel "numbering thousands" is sufficient, so "in the" seems redundant, what is it for?
ex)The snowy plover is one of the hardest birds to spot on the beach. Once numbering in the thousands, the species is listed as endangered in several states now. Beige and white, snowy plovers blend perfectly in the white sand.

A: In that context, 'numbering thousands' would suggest that there weren't really very many. I don't know anything about snowy plovers' range, but I imagine it's several thousand square miles; 'thousands and thousands' is a good way of emphasizing how numerous they are.
 

Raymott

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I'm sorry I understood your teaching pretty much, but something is not clear.
I posted the following one, and does this "would" here mean non-emphatic euphemistic expression as you taught me? Or does it mean a conditional as in "If it were in that context, it would mean..."? Sentences with this kind of adverb phrases always confuse me.

Q: Does " numbering in the thousands" mean "its number was thousands"? But I feel "numbering thousands" is sufficient, so "in the" seems redundant, what is it for?
ex)The snowy plover is one of the hardest birds to spot on the beach. Once numbering in the thousands, the species is listed as endangered in several states now. Beige and white, snowy plovers blend perfectly in the white sand.

A: In that context, 'numbering thousands' would suggest that there weren't really very many. I don't know anything about snowy plovers' range, but I imagine it's several thousand square miles; 'thousands and thousands' is a good way of emphasizing how numerous they are.
Here it means "non-emphatic euphemistic expression" (if that's how you want to refer to it).

This is similar to saying. "In that context I would say
that 'numbering thousands' suggests that there weren't really very many
 

keannu

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Thanks a lot! I know it's quite irritating to explain what you already know in your mind analytically. I also know a matching Korean word "겟/get/" for "would", and I naturally say it in any case, but trying to explain it would be a devil's time as you said in another thread(sorry!!).
Many grammar books taught me if there's an implied conditional adverbs or conditinal sentences like the following even though there's no if-clause, the sentence can be a conditional. So wouldn't the following be a conditional?
What is the standard to tell a mild, non-emphatic, euphimistic sentences for opinions from conditionals with "would"? Can I interpret any sentence without "if clause" as opinions?(I'm not so silly as to interpret every "would" as opinions) Then my stereotypes will be shattered. I hope this will be the last question as I don't want to annoy you any more, but please know that I think about "would" even while taking a walk.

1. You are so stupid to marry such a drunkard. I wouldn't marry him. (If I were you, I wouldn't...) - if clause implied
 

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Thanks a lot! I know it's quite irritating to explain what you already know in your mind analytically. I also know a matching Korean word "겟/get/" for "would", and I naturally say it in any case, but trying to explain it would be a devil's time as you said in another thread(sorry!!).
Many grammar books taught me if there's an implied conditional adverbs or conditinal sentences like the following even though there's no if-clause, the sentence can be a conditional. So wouldn't the following be a conditional?
What is the standard to tell a mild, non-emphatic, euphimistic sentences for opinions from conditionals with "would"?

There's no standard. Not many people would be interested in telling one from the other. (euphemistic)

Can I interpret any sentence without "if clause" as opinions?(I'm not so silly as to interpret every "would" as opinions) Then my stereotypes will be shattered. I hope this will be the last question as I don't want to annoy you any more, but please know that I think about "would" even while taking a walk.

1. You are so stupid to marry such a drunkard. I wouldn't marry him. (If I were you, I wouldn't...) - if clause implied
Yes, you can call sentence 1. an implied conditional. But really, you just have to understand the sentence - which I'm sure you do.
 

keannu

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I'm sorry I'm breaking my promise. I swore not to ask about "would" any more as it might be quite irritating to you. But I encountered the following "would" that I coulnd't understand well. Is it an opinion(euphemistic) or a conditional? If I regard it as a conditional, "a bottle full or diry water" can be an unlikely or counterfactual condition as 2nd conditional, but I as you explained to me, it seems a question for others' opinions. ***Now I realized it's a polite request in conditional mood, definitely!!!(at the last minute)

Actually, I didn't fully understand when you corrected "Won't you say "My son will recover from his cold?"" to "Wouldn't you" as I thought careful, mild opinions come from speakers, and not for listeners. So is it a polite, careful, euphemistic question for listeners?

I heard 5jj said even native speakers don't know why they say some "would", but I think at least they may have some motive in mind to say that. I encounter hundreds of "would" all over, and after I came to know "opinion" usage of "would", I'm in a maze and the following link explains too many kinds. Don't I have to care too much about the various kinds of "would" such as polite requests, wish, opinions, and presumptions that belong to conditionals?

Would

ex)Would you pay a dollar for a bottle full of dirty water? What if it was labeled "maleria" or "cholera"? You could buy this unusual bottled water from a vending machine World Water Week in New York City. The water was sold as part of an effort to raise awareness in America about the lack of clean water in many areas of the world..... Most New Yorkers who passed by the vending machine were disgusted by the bottles of dirty water at first. But once they learned more about the serious problem, many of them donated money to help end it....They promised that each dollar would allow them to provide fresh, clean water to 40 children for one day...
 
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