In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

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trueheart_205

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In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and "Where" are used similarly. I show here an examlpe:
"The vilage is not far from here. I has many beautiful views"
I wrote it into:
1. The village Which has many beautiful views is not far from here
2. The village Where has many beautiful views is not far from here
I think the second one is not very correct.
So when should we use "Which"? When should we use "Where"?
("The village" is understood as a position or a item?)
Thanks!
 

5jj

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

'Where' is used with the idea of 'in/at which'.

Meonstoke is the village where I grew up
Meonstoke is the village (which) I grew up in.
 

William Jones

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

The only complaint that I would have with the example given is that 'which I grew up in' is restrictive. Stating 'Meonstoke is the village' is incomplete without the clause, so 'that' should be used in place of 'which': 'Meonstoke is the village that I grew up in.'
 

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

The only complaint that I would have with the example given is that 'which I grew up in' is restrictive. Stating 'Meonstoke is the village' is incomplete without the clause, so 'that' should be used in place of 'which': 'Meonstoke is the village that I grew up in.'
In British English, 'which' is fine.
 

William Jones

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Truly? I knew that in some writing, generally biblical, it isn't uncommon for 'which' to be used in place of 'that' for prosody, but I didn't know that they were equivalent in British English.

I appreciate the information.

J. Jones
 

5jj

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

I don't know enough about American English to make sweeping statements, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the 'rule' about using 'that' instead of 'which' in restrictive/defining relative clauses was invented by the sort of writer who abhors split infinitives and thinks that a preposition is something you can't end a sentence with.
 

William Jones

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Indeed. Probably one of those batty Latinists.
 

Barb_D

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

I like my "thats" restrictive and my "whiches" unrestrictive, and I am happy to boldy go forth, and you'd be a guy I'd be happy to go with.

Was it EVER the rule? Because I really do find using "which" for a restrictive clause grating. So either some teacher taught me something that was overly prescripting and not really correct way back when, or it's another one of those regional things.
 

CarloSsS

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Indeed. Probably one of those batty Latinists.

Batty as in "crazy" or "blind"?
 

William Jones

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Well, Strunk and White's The Elements of Style certainly list it as a rule, and that's one of the most well respected guides for writers in America. And Fowler states in his A Dictionary of Modern English Usage that "The kinds of relative clause, to one of which that & to the other of which which is appropriate, are the defining & the non-defining; & if writers would agree to regard that as the defining relative pronoun & which as the non-defining, there would be much gain both in lucidity & in ease." He does also mention that this problem is more common in the English of England than in American English. American English tends to ascribe a learnedness to the use of which and a colloquial quality to that​.
 
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William Jones

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Batty as in more accustomed to hearing high-pitched chirping than to hearing well-spoken language. Silly latinists.
 

CarloSsS

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

I've encountered the rule countless times. In grammar books, in school, on the Internet, in Michael Swan's Practical English Usage etc. Note though, that overwhelming majority of the materials I found this rule in refers exclusively to BrE.
 

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

And Fowler states in his A Dictionary of Modern English Usage that "The kinds of relative clause, to one of which that & to the other of which which is appropriate, are the defining & the non-defining; & if writers would agree to regard that as the defining relative pronoun & which as the non-defining, there would be much gain both in lucidity & in ease."
So, Fowler gives his opinion of what he thinks would be better. I don't really think that that is binding on the rest of us.

ps. Did Fowler really use the ampersand?
 

William Jones

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Well, Fowler was well known for not giving 'rules' insomuch, but his ability to condescend had the equivalent force of a wrecking ball on the average writer's psyche, so they just did what he said.

And he was a prodigious user of the ampersand.
 

5jj

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

I've encountered the rule countless times. In grammar books, in school, on the Internet, in Michael Swan's Practical English Usage etc. Note though, that overwhelming majority of the materials I found this rule in refers exclusively to BrE.
Swan does not give it as a rule. In the 3rd edition of PEU he simply says, on page 480, "That is common as a relative pronoun in identifying clauses".
 

5jj

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Well, Fowler was well known for not giving 'rules' insomuch, but his ability to condescend had the equivalent force of a wrecking ball on the average writer's psyche, so they just did what he said.
Not all of them. After the lines you quoted, Fowler goes on to say, "Some there are who follow this principle now; but it would be idle to pretend that it is the practice either of most or of the best writers".
 

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

He was, after all, trying to point out the usefulness of the suggestion (which later became rule--at least in the U.S.) that that and which be used accordingly. It was not then as common as it has now become; given that his text is c. 1944, its not a wonder that many were not yet following suit. But by the 1950s (when Strunk & White's Elements of Style was becoming the major text that it now is) their rule number 3 (dealing with parentheticals and relatives) was added. No longer a suggestion, but a fast rule.


I must ask, does the copy you have also include the ampersands?
 

5jj

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

He was, after all, trying to point out the usefulness of the suggestion (which later became rule--at least in the U.S.) that that and which be used accordingly. It was not then as common as it has now become; given that his text is c. 1944, its not a wonder that many were not yet following suit. But by the 1950s (when Strunk & White's Elements of Style was becoming the major text that it now is) their rule number 3 (dealing with parentheticals and relatives) was added. No longer a suggestion, but a fast rule.


I must ask, does the copy you have also include the ampersands?
The first edition was published in 1926.

Neither my second nor my third edition has ampersands.
 

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Along with my "Save the Subjunctive Support Group" I may have to start a "Restrictive That, Unrestrictive Which" group too. I really am one of the people who finds the distiction useful. But then, I also keep comrise and compose, and infer and imply as separate words too, despite the prevailing trends. :)
 

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Re: In using relative clause,sometimes I see that the relative pronouns "Which" and

Along with my "Save the Subjunctive Support Group" I may have to start a "Restrictive That, Unrestrictive Which" group too. I really am one of the people who finds the distiction useful. But then, I also keep comrise and compose, and infer and imply as separate words too, despite the prevailing trends. :)
Don't forget this group or 'disinterested/uninterested!

I have to admit that I use 'that' far more than 'which' in defining relative clauses. I was simply making the point that it is not a rule in British English.
 
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