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  1. CarloSsS's Avatar
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    #1

    must have known vs. had to known

    Is there any difference between the to sentences below? There is not other context provided. They're from an entrance test to one Czech university (that is, not composed by natives).

    He asked me for money although he had to know I would be angry with him.
    He asked me for money although he must have known I would be angry with him.


    I don't see much of a difference, but the answer key says that the former is correct.
    Please note that I'm not a teacher.

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    #2

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    I don't see any difference.

    Rover

  2. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #3

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    Quote Originally Posted by CarloSsS View Post
    Is there any difference between the to sentences below? There is not other context provided. They're from an entrance test to one Czech university (that is, not composed by natives).

    He asked me for money although he had to know I would be angry with him.
    He asked me for money although he must have known I would be angry with him.


    I don't see much of a difference, but the answer key says that the former is correct.
    Both are possible. If anything, I prefer the second.

  3. Raymott's Avatar
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    #4

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    I also prefer the second. But if the first had read "he had to have known", that would be as good.

    Consider a different verb - 'do' not 'know'.
    1. "He was the only one in the room - he must have done it."
    2. "He was the only one in the room - he had to have done it."
    3. "He was the only one in the room - he had to do it."
    1 and 2 mean (roughly) the same. 3 doesn't.
    Last edited by Raymott; 23-Jun-2012 at 10:28. Reason: typo

  4. CarloSsS's Avatar
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    #5

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    Quote Originally Posted by Raymott View Post
    I also prefer the second. But if the first has read "he had to have known", that would be as good.

    Consider a different verb - 'do' not 'know'.
    1. "He was the only one in the room - he must have done it."
    2. "He was the only one in the room - he had to have done it."
    3. "He was the only one in the room - he had to do it."
    1 and 2 mean (roughly) the same. 3 doesn't.
    I guess the difference between 1 and 2 is that the former means something like "he did it because he wanted to", while the latter means ("somebody else wanted him to do it, so he did it"). Right? However, I read in Swan's PEU (361.1 - the last paragraph), that in AmE, "must" can be replaced with "have to" with no difference in meaning:

    "I really have to stop smoking" is the same (in AmE) as "I really must stop smoking".

    Having said that, can the first and second sentence mean the same? Not just roughly the same? Similarly as the two sentences that I gave in the first post mean the same?
    Please note that I'm not a teacher.

  5. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #6

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    Quote Originally Posted by CarloSsS View Post
    I guess the difference between 1 and 2 is that the former means something like "he did it because he wanted to", while the latter means ("somebody else wanted him to do it, so he did it"). Right? However, I read in Swan's PEU (361.1 - the last paragraph), that in AmE, "must" can be replaced with "have to" with no difference in meaning:

    "I really have to stop smoking" is the same (in AmE) as "I really must stop smoking".

    Having said that, can the first and second sentence mean the same? Not just roughly the same? Similarly as the two sentences that I gave in the first post mean the same?
    I don't see any difference in meaning.

  6. CarloSsS's Avatar
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    #7

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    Quote Originally Posted by bhaisahab View Post
    I don't see any difference in meaning.
    Between these two?

    1. "He was the only one in the room - he must have done it."
    2. "He was the only one in the room - he had to have done it."
    Please note that I'm not a teacher.

  7. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #8

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    Quote Originally Posted by CarloSsS View Post
    Between these two?
    Yes, between those two.

  8. CarloSsS's Avatar
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    #9

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    What about these two? Is there any difference in meaning?

    He asked me for money although he had to have known I would be angry with him. (he very likely knew before he asked me?)
    He asked me for money although he had to know I would be angry with him. (he very likely knew before or after he asked me?)
    Please note that I'm not a teacher.

  9. bhaisahab's Avatar
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    #10

    Re: must have known vs. had to known

    Quote Originally Posted by CarloSsS View Post
    What about these two? Is there any difference in meaning?

    He asked me for money although he had to have known I would be angry with him. (he very likely knew before he asked me?)
    He asked me for money although he had to know I would be angry with him. (he very likely knew before or after he asked me?)
    No, not that I can see.

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