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Tedwonny

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If a book has 100 pages,

page 100 is the last page
is page 99 the second last page?
what about page 97, the third from the last?

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abaka

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Yes, that works. "Third last", "fourth last", and so on are also possible, but the higher the number the rarer the phrase. Another way, possibly the most natural of all, is to say: last, second last, third from the end, and so on.
 

emsr2d2

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We also say that page 99 is the "next to last page".
 

BobK

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There are also the formal versions:

  • Ultimate
  • Penultimate
  • Antepenultimate
  • ...
The list can be extended by adding prefixes. I think 'proantepenultimate' is the next. But I've never heard it used in real life, and 'antepenultimate' is pretty rare.

b
 

abaka

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The "ultimate" series refers more often to syllables in a word than pages in a book.
 

Rover_KE

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The "ultimate" series refers more often to syllables in a word than pages in a book.

Have you any evidence to support that statement?

The Fraze It website shows its use to be fairly ubiquitous.

Rover
 

abaka

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Yes. I was thinking specifically of "antepenultimate". From dictionary.reference.com:

an·te·pe·nul·ti·mate
adjective
1.
third from the end.
2. of or pertaining to an antepenult.

an·te·pe·nult
noun the third syllable from the end in a word, as te in antepenult.

Note the specific reference to the third-last syllable.
 

5jj

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The full OED (2nd edn) says of the word: "Orig. of syllables; but extended to order in place or time".
Webster's Third says: "2: coming before the next to last in any series".

That's what I thought.
 

BobK

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The dictionary abaka quoted is referring to the noun 'antepenult'*. His/her generalization, made on the basis of a misunderstood authority, was simply wrong. :-|

b

PS If anyone ever wants to say this word, note that the stress is not the same as for the adjective - the noun is stressed on the /'pen/.
 
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abaka

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Actually, BobK, I had no authority for my original post beyond my understanding of the language. But I will gladly seize on the OED's note 5jj has quoted as justification for my opinion. Your "simply wrong" is simply objectionable.
 

5jj

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ABut I will gladly seize on the OED's note 5jj has quoted as justification for my opinion.
I don't see how the OED definition justifies your opinion:
The "ultimate" series refers more often to syllables in a word than pages in a book.
 

SoothingDave

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I would say "second from last" or "third from last" and not "third last."
 

abaka

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If the definition of "antepenultimate" I quoted says in effect (1) third-last, (2) third-last syllable, then clearly the usage with syllables is a particularly important one. The OED's note to the effect of "originally applied to syllables, later generalized" further supports the same idea.

I repeat that my assertion was based on my sense of English, and that I was thinking of "antepenultimate" as opposed to the others. "Antepenultimate" is a rare word, and the only place I myself have ever seen it, other than discussions of lexicographic frequency, is Latin grammar books in the chapters on prosody.

I agree my first statement may have been overgeneralized if taken out of context. "Ultimate" and "penultimate" certainly are not restricted to syllables. Once "antepenultimate" and "preantepenultimate" (not "pro-", by the way) are added, however -- as they were -- the context becomes distinctly syllabic. That is what I wrote, and I stand by my assertion.

What bothers me most, however, is the flatness of contradiction. Complete with smiley :-|.

PS. "Third-last" is certainly less common than "second-last", but I think Google yields enough results to assert its correctness, even once unrelated juxtapositions of the two words are factored out.
 
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5jj

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I repeat that my assertion was based on my sense of English, and that I was thinking of "antepenultimate" as opposed to the others. "Antepenultimate" is a rare word, and the only place I myself have ever seen it, other than discussions of lexicographic frequency, is Latin grammar books in the chapters on prosody.
Perhaps so. I have seen it, admittedly rarely, in other contexts.
I agree my first statement may have been overgeneralized if taken out of context. "Ultimate" and "penultimate" certainly are not restricted to syllables.
Quite. However you wrote "The "ultimate" series refers more often to syllables in a word than pages in a book" and that is what people responded to. You provided no other context for the words to be taken out of.
Once "antepenultimate" and "preantepenultimate" (not "pro-", by the way) are added, however -- as they were -- the context becomes distinctly syllabic. That is what I wrote, and I stand by my assertion.
Well some of us do not agree with you about 'antepenultimate'. And, as far as that word is concerned, neither do the OED or Webster's Third.
What bothers me most, however, is the flatness of contradiction.
Your statement in post #5 needed to be flatly contradicted. It is not true of 'ultimate' itself' or of 'penultimate'. You said yourself, in a later post, " I was thinking specifically of "antepenultimate". What was contradicted was what you wrote, not what you say you were thinking. Nobody here is a mind-reader.
You then went on to make a claim about 'antepenultimate' based on a dictionary definition of 'antepenult'. We only respond to what is presented to us, abaka. The words in some of your posts claimed things that are simply not a reflection of how the words are used.
 

emsr2d2

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I had no idea that "antepenult" as a noun existed.

My English professor from the ages of 16-18, regularly used "Please turn to the antepenultimate page of the book/chapter" etc. I think he took great delight in looking around the room to see who looked very confused, having never heard the term before. I'm fairly certain we all knew what "Please turn to the penultimate page ..." meant but few people had heard "antepenultimate" before.
 

abaka

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You then went on to make a claim about 'antepenultimate' based on a dictionary definition of 'antepenult'.

In the style common here: flatly wrong :-|. Or, perhaps to soften it: the definition I quoted said "third from the end" and then felt necessary to reference a usage relating to "antepenult", ie, the syllable third from the end. Imagine a word "wergitty" the definition of which says:

(1) white (2) or of referring to a wergitt. Wergitt: white box.

Would it not be fair to conclude the most common usage of "wergitty" is "a wergitty box"? I think so.
 

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In the style common here: flatly wrong :-|. Or, perhaps to soften it: the definition I quoted said "third from the end" and then felt necessary to reference a usage relating to "antepenult", ie, the syllable third from the end. Imagine a word "wergitty" the definition of which says:

(1) white (2) or of referring to a wergitt. Wergitt: white box.

Would it not be fair to conclude the most common usage of "wergitty" is "a wergitty box"? I think so.

I think that the examples given in a dictionary are examples, not necessarily the "most common use."

Also, it's hard to make an argument that the second definition listed is the most common.
 
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