could have worked

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keannu

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"could have+pp" is usually either counterfactual result in conditionals or presumption in the past. But this seems to be a factual expression like "had been able to". Is this usage common or exceptional?

330-76
ex)We sometimes encounter students who come to our offices and ask how they could have worked so hard but still failed our tests. They usually tell us that they read and reread the textbook and their class notes, and that they thought they understood everything well by the time of the exam...
 

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We sometimes encounter students who come to our offices and ask how they could have worked so hard but still failed our tests.

I don't see any problems with this sentence and this usage of "could have worked" is very common.

Despite all their hard work, the students failed nevertheless.
 

keannu

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Your example phrases containing how could you have shows me about the past usage of "could have p.p", but I don't know why I feel it's for past perfect usage. I rarely have seen "could have p.p" as a factual thing. It was either presumption or counterfactual result. Then, what do you think is the difference between the following two?

1. He says he could have finished his homework- I think this is counterfactual result, He didn't finish it
2. He says he could finish his homework - He finished it.(maybe "was able to" fits better)

1. He said he could have finished his homework- He had finished - maybe possible
2. He said he had been able to finish his homework - He had finished
 

tzfujimino

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Hello.:-D
O.K. Let's change them into the direct speech.

1. He says, "(If I had had enough time,) I could have finished my homework."
2. He says, "I was able to (or managed to) finish my homework." (Yes, I agree with you. 'was able to/managed to' fits better.)

3. He said, "(If I had had enough time,) I could have finished my homework."
4. He said, "I was able to/have been able to finish my homework."

Do you agree?
 
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keannu

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No, what I meant was not the interpretation of each, but "could have pp" is rarely used as a factual thing if you compare each couple.
 

tzfujimino

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Hello.:-D

If I understand you correctly (your query about the "factual thing"), the only usage I can think of is when it (could+have+p.p) is used with "how".

"How could you possibly have done...?" - I think it is used to express the speaker's 'disbelief' or 'doubt' or 'surprise'...etc.

Do you see what I mean?
 
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keannu

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I once asked a native speaker teacher about this "could have pp", and he said it's always presumption or counterfactual result, not a factual description. So I think the following is either a mistake or an exceptional usage of factual things.
Anyway, your explanation of "how could you have p.p?" is awesome. I have forgot it's a doubt or disbelief, so I got quite refreshed about it.

ex)how they could have worked so
 

tzfujimino

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I once asked a native speaker teacher about this "could have pp", and he said it's always presumption or counterfactual result, not a factual description. So I think the following is either a mistake or an exceptional usage of factual things.
Anyway, your explanation of "how could you have p.p?" is awesome. I have forgot it's a doubt or disbelief, so I got quite refreshed about it.

ex)how they could have worked so

I don't dare to say it's wrong, but obviously the speaker/writer doesn't believe the fact that they failed despite their diligence. It's unbelievable for (to?) the speaker/writer.:-D
 

keannu

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Thinking deeply about it, I can't help but conclude that what tzfu said is right in relation to "doubt about the past".
"could" or "could have p.p" has the nuance of "imaginary or counterfactual result, so the students doubted the result as falsehood even though they knew it was true.
 

keannu

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I also wonder if this usage "how could we have worked so hard but still (could we have) failed our tests"? I think this kind of rhetorical question can be interpreted in the opposite way like "We couldn't have failed our test". Is it correct?
If so, does belongs to low possibility or conditional as in the following. Does it mean a possbility to result in doubt or a conditional usage?
Modal Use
Positive Forms
1. = Present 2. = Past 3. = Future
Negative Forms
1. = Present 2. = Past 3. = Future
You can also use:
could
possibility
1. John could be the one who stole the money.
2. John could have been the one who stole the money.
1. Mary couldn't be the one who stole the money.
2. Mary couldn't have been the one who stole the money. .
might,
may
could
conditional
of can
1. If I had more time, I could travel around the world.
2. If I had had more time, I could have traveled around the world.
1. Even if I had more time, I couldn't travel around the world.
2. Even if I had had more time, I couldn't have traveled around the world.
 

tzfujimino

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I also wonder if this usage "how could we have worked so hard but still (could we have) failed our tests"? I think this kind of rhetorical question can be interpreted in the opposite way like "We couldn't have failed our test". Is it correct? Yes, I agree. But the original sentence is "how they could have worked so.... but still failed our test." So, "they"="the students", "we(our)"=? I don't know, "school officials", perhaps?
If so, does belongs to low possibility or conditional as in the following. Does it mean a possbility to result in doubt or a conditional usage?
Modal Use
Positive Forms
1. = Present 2. = Past 3. = Future
Negative Forms
1. = Present 2. = Past 3. = Future
You can also use:
could
possibility
1. John could be the one who stole the money.
2. John could have been the one who stole the money.
1. Mary couldn't be the one who stole the money.
2. Mary couldn't have been the one who stole the money. .
might,
may
could
conditional
of can
1. If I had more time, I could travel around the world.
2. If I had had more time, I could have traveled around the world.
1. Even if I had more time, I couldn't travel around the world.
2. Even if I had had more time, I couldn't have traveled around the world.

O.K. I'll try my best to convince you.:-D
According to Practical English Usage (Third Edition, Michael Swan), on page 334, (I quote)

We normally use cannot/can't to say that something is certainly not the case, because it is logically or practically impossible, or extremely improbable.

If A is bigger than B, and B is bigger than C, then C can't be bigger than A.
It can't be the postman at the door. It's only seven o'clock.

We can use must have + past participle to express certainty about the past.
Can is used in questions and negatives.

Where can John have put the matches? He can't have thrown them away.

(tzfujimino - I'm sure that you've already mastered this use, since you've shown several uses above.)

And...on page 98, (I quote)

Could is not only past: we also use it as a 'softner', less definite form of can.
(tzfujimino - as you already know)


So,
1-a. How could John be the one who stole the money?
- certainty about the present (The speaker thinks it is extremely improbable. S/he doesn't believe it.)

2-a. How could John have been the one who stole the money?
- certainty about the past (The speaker thinks it is extremely improbable. S/he doesn't believe it.)

I feel your "a possbility to result in doubt" is very close.

Is it convincing enough?
(I hope so.:-D)
 
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keannu

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Thank you for your endeavor. I was trying to label "could have pp" as "conditional" or "possibility" as in this thread.
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...ou-bit-crazy-depressed.html?referrerid=354734
But after reading this thread again -oops, I didn't even realized I did the same thing before- I realized to lable
it "conditional" and "(low) possiblity" are the same thing.

1. I wonder if "how S could have pp" implies its opposite form "S couldn't have pp" as in
ex) How could he have become president?
=> He couldn't have become president(knowing for sure he became president, I'd like to doubt the fact he became president)

2.I was more interested in distancing technique of "could have pp". I wonder if "could have pp" means past perfect to make fictional nuance by making it further back from the past, used in counterfactual conditionals.

It's Sunday(nijjiyobi), and I take it you are as enthusiastic as I am for English, taking no rest. tzfu!
 

tzfujimino

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Thank you for your endeavor. I was trying to label "could have pp" as "conditional" or "possibility" as in this thread.
https://www.usingenglish.com/forum/...ou-bit-crazy-depressed.html?referrerid=354734
But after reading this thread again -oops, I didn't even realized I did the same thing before- I realized to lable
it "conditional" and "(low) possiblity" are the same thing.

1. I wonder if "how S could have pp" implies its opposite form "S couldn't have pp" as in
ex) How could he have become president?
=> He couldn't have become president(knowing for sure he became president, I'd like to doubt the fact he became president)

2.I was more interested in distancing technique of "could have pp". I wonder if "could have pp" means past perfect to make fictional nuance by making it further back from the past, used in counterfactual conditionals.

It's Sunday(nijjiyobi), and I take it you are as enthusiastic as I am for English, taking no rest. tzfu!

Ah, you've had some disucussion with Raymott.:-D

Well, as for your question #1,

"How could such an idiot have become president?"

Answer (=My guess)1.
In this context, I'm not sure if your idea is right or not. If he is now president, he is! There is no doubt about it. (Or if you're talking about a specific president in the past, would you say "He couldn't have become..."? He actually became president! What do you think? "How could such an idiot...", however, conveys a strong sense of disbelief, in my opinion.)
However, "How could John have been the one who stole the money?" leaves some room for doubt (disbelief). Therefore the speaker might probably have the opinion that "He couldn't have been the one..."
Answer (=My guess)2.
It could be a title of a book disucussing how he has become/became president.:-D

And...as for your question about 'distancing', I'm not sure. We'll have to wait for some native speakers to comment.

I hope I've made myself clear.

P.S. It's "Nichiyobi", by the way.:-D
 
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emsr2d2

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In my opinion, this kind of "How could ...?" usually expresses disbelief or surprise at something real.

How could I have been so stupid?! (Clearly, I was very stupid to have done whatever it was.)
How could you work so hard and still get fired? (You have been fired despite working so hard.)
 

keannu

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Can I interprete the underlined in the example like this?
"How could we have worked so hard but still (could we have) failed our tests?" (Direct speech)
=> "We couldn't have worked so hard but still failed our tests?"
 
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keannu

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This will be my last question for this thread, I swear!
 
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