Tsars village / Tsar's village / Tsars' village

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milan2003_07

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Hi,

There is a place in Russia, near St.Petersburg, which is called "Tsarskoe Selo". This town used to be the official residence of Russian emperors for almost 200 years from the mid 1740-s till the Great October Revolution of 1917. The word "Tsarskoe Selo" translates as "the village used as a residence of Russian tsars". I've gor three options. Which one do you think is correct:

1) Tsars village
2) Tsar's village
3) Tsars' village

Thanks
 

5jj

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This probaly isn't what you wanted, but I'd refer to it as Tsarskoe Selo (Village of the tsars).
 

winnie22

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I think , Tsar's Village is the correct one.
 

Raymott

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Hi,

There is a place in Russia, near St.Petersburg, which is called "Tsarskoe Selo". This town used to be the official residence of Russian emperors for almost 200 years from the mid 1740-s till the Great October Revolution of 1917. The word "Tsarskoe Selo" translates as "the village used as a residence of Russian tsars". I've gor three options. Which one do you think is correct:

1) Tsars village
2) Tsar's village
3) Tsars' village

Thanks
They are all potentially correct.
I assume there was only one Tsar at a time, therefore Tsar's is right at any one time.
Tsars' is of course right too.
Tsars Village is also correct. Note, if village is part of the name, it's capitalised.

In any case, names of places don't necessarily have to follow grammatical rules.
 

milan2003_07

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This probaly isn't what you wanted, but I'd refer to it as Tsarskoe Selo (Village of the tsars).

I agree that "Village of the tsars" does make sense, but we're speaking about tsars in general and therefore why do we need to use "the"? We aren't specifying particular tsars or a particular period when the place was used as a residence. Thus, maybe "Village of tsars"?
 

milan2003_07

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You're right saying that there was one tsar at a time, but the residence wasn't for one tsar. Each tsar was succeeded by his son or brother and therefore the residence was used by many tsars for almost 200 years. As far as I know when we want to mention something of a particular type we use the plural form like "tsars" in the example above. Apostrophe is needed because we're talking about people. I would say "Tsars' village" for this reason. Does it make sense?

They are all potentially correct.
I assume there was only one Tsar at a time, therefore Tsar's is right at any one time.
Tsars' is of course right too.
Tsars Village is also correct. Note, if village is part of the name, it's capitalised.

In any case, names of places don't necessarily have to follow grammatical rules.
 

Raymott

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You're right saying that there was one tsar at a time, but the residence wasn't for one tsar. Each tsar was succeeded by his son or brother and therefore the residence was used by many tsars for almost 200 years. As far as I know when we want to mention something of a particular type we use the plural form like "tsars" in the example above. Apostrophe is needed because we're talking about people. I would say "Tsars' village" for this reason. Does it make sense?
The apostrophe has nothing to do with people. Village of the Birds = the Birds' Village.
As far as multiple tsars go, that's not necessarily determinative either. 10 Downing Street, London is the UK Prime Minister's residence, even if it used by serial Prime Ministers.
As I said you can make arguments for the correctness of each form. I also prefer Village of the Tsars. (Once again, note that both words are capitalised).
 

5jj

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I would say "Tsars' village" for this reason. Does it make sense?
Raymott has already said it does. He's also said that if it's the name of the village, it's Tsars' Village.
 

milan2003_07

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OK. Thanks a lot. My final question right now: why "Village of the tsars" rather than "Village of tsars"?
 

5jj

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Why indeed? It sounds right to me, but I can't think of a convincing reason. I'll work on it. In the meantime, use "Village of Tsars" if you prefer.
 

Raymott

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OK. Thanks a lot. My final question right now: why "Village of the Tsars" rather than "Village of Tsars"?
Because they are specific tsars. But it doesn't matter in this case. Village of Birds or Village of the Birds are both good.

You're not going to take the point about capitalisation, are you?
 

milan2003_07

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Sorry for being inattentive with the capitalisation. Of course, I'll do as you've advised.

The tsars are really specific, but only because they all ruled the Russian Empire, but not because they had something in common (all of them). However I agree that "Village of the Tsars" would be clearer to people than "Village of Tsars" because the first option is more concrete.
 

birdeen's call

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I think Tsars Village (or Tsar Village) is the closest to the original (which doesn't mean it's the best). In Russian, it is possible to imagine a Царево Село, with "царево" (as in "царево око видит далеко") instead of "царское". The suffix "-ев" is used to form adjectives whose meanings are close to those of the so-called possessive forms with "-'s" and "-s'" in English. But what we're actually dealing with is "-ский", which is an all-purpose adjectival suffix. I think this corresponds to English noun adjuncts.

This is clearly weak though.
 
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abaka

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Call it Tsarskoe Selo.

Actually the original names for the place, when it was still in Ingria, then a kind of neutral zone between the Swedish and Moscovite states, were

Saris-hoff on Swedish maps
Saris-mois in the local Ingric dialect (distinct from modern Finnish)
Saritsa in Russian.

All three names mean something like Saris-ton or Saris-place, Saris being the name of the local magnate family.

Later, in the eighteenth century, after the Russian imperial house established its summer quarters there, Saris and "Tsaris-" got confused.

In any case, translating toponyms is a bad idea. We say Tiananmen Square, not "the Square of the Gate of Heavenly Peace".
 
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