compound modifiers of a noun

[sergeyrais]

What's the difference between the phrases a seven-day holiday and a seventh-day holiday? Can the first one be understood as "a holiday lasting seven days" and the second one as "a holiday taken place on the seventh day"?
Can the modifier seven-day in the phrase a seven-day holiday be substituted with a genitive modifier seven days' ( a seven days' holiday)?

 

[Rover_KE]

What's the difference between the phrases a seven-day holiday and a seventh-day holiday? Can the first one be understood as "a holiday lasting seven days" and the second one as "a holiday taking place on the seventh day"?.Yes.

Can the modifier seven-day in the phrase a seven-day holiday be substituted with a genitive modifier seven days' ( a seven days' holiday)? Only if you want to sound like a non-native speaker.

Rover

 

[sergeyrais]

Thank you for your answers and correction, Rover.
It seems to me that not sounding like a non-native speaker is too much of a challenge for me. But on the other hand even native speakers often avoid following some grammar rules. There might have been some ambiguity in the modality of the verb can in my question. So I would like to specify the latter and ask whether the substitution of

the modifier​

seven-day in the phrase a seven-day holiday with a genitive modifier seven days' is grammatically correct, but not whether I will sound like a non-native speaker when saying this phrase.

 

[Tdol]

You can say I took seven days' holiday, but not [strike]I took a seven days' holiday[/strike]

 

[sergeyrais]

You can say I took seven days' holiday, but not [strike]I took a seven days' holiday[/strike]

Why can't I justify the indefinite article by referring it to the head word (holiday) which is modified by a descriptive attribute (seven days')?
e.g.
I didn't take a seven days' holiday, but I took a ten days' holiday.

Or is there anything wrong with the indefinite article in the basic expression "to take a holiday"?

 

[bhaisahab]

Why can't I justify the indefinite article by referring it to the head word (holiday) which is modified by a descriptive attribute (seven days')?
e.g.
I didn't take a seven days' holiday, but I took a ten days' holiday. Because it's not correct English, as you have been told several times.

Or is there anything wrong with the indefinite article in the basic expression "to take a holiday"? No.

Bhai.

 

[emsr2d2]

I took a ten-day holiday.
I took ten days' holiday.

If you don't believe us when we tell you that the above two sentences are the correct ways of expressing it in English, and that your suggested variations are incorrect, I don't see what else we can do for you.

 

[sergeyrais]

I took a ten-day holiday.
I took ten days' holiday.

If you don't believe us when we tell you that the above two sentences are the correct ways of expressing it in English, and that your suggested variations are incorrect, I don't see what else we can do for you.

I guess the Grammar is not the matter of believing, but of understanding. For what profit would I have if I did believe you that the above two sentences are the correct ways of expressing it in English, and that my suggested variations are incorrect, without understanding the absence of an indefinite article before a word modified by a descriptive attribute where according to the rules it should be?

If you don't mind, I will put the question in the following way.

An indefinite article in its classifying function can't be used before the phrase "ten days' holiday" because:

1) "ten days'" is not a descriptive attribute;
2) "ten days' holiday" is a set expression;
3) we cosider it to be incorrect;
4) all of the above;
5) there is some other reason.

When choosing the right variant, please remember that I will be using your explanation not only for myself but also for my pupils who are preparing for the examination test.

 

[Chicken Sandwich]

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

I guess the Grammar is not the matter of believing, but of understanding. For what profit would I have if I did believe you that the above two sentences are the correct ways of expressing it in English, and that my suggested variations are incorrect, without understanding the absence of an indefinite article before a word modified by a descriptive attribute where according to the rules it should be?

We also use -'s (or -s' with plural words) with periods of time:
- I've got a week's holiday starting on Monday.
- Julia has got three weeks' holiday.
- I live near the station - it's only about ten minutes' walk.
(English Grammar in Use - Raymond Murphy)

It seems to me that "a" is not possible before three weeks' and ten minutes' because both nouns are plural.

You wouldn't say 'I have a seven close friends' either, right?

 

[sergeyrais]

It seems to me that "a" is not possible before three weeks' and ten minutes' because both nouns are plural.

The problem is that the indefinite article could be referred to the head noun of the phrase (holiday) but, of course, not to the noun weeks.

 

[sergeyrais]

You wouldn't say 'I have a seven close friends' either, right?

No, I would not.
But I would say "I attended a seven close friends' meeting", meaning that I was present at the meeting organised specially for seven close friends and using the article to distinguish this meeting from "a ten close friends' meeting" and "a twelve close friends' meeting" which happened to be taking place at the same time.

 

[emsr2d2]

No, I would not.
But I would say "I attended a seven close friends' meeting", meaning that I was present at the meeting organised specially for seven close friends and using the article to distinguish this meeting from "a ten close friends' meeting" and "a twelve close friends' meeting" which happened to be taking place at the same time.

Well, if you said that, you would be incorrect. We don't refer to "a meeting of seven close friends" as a "seven-close-friends meeting" under any circumstances. You simply can't apply the rules which refer to one sentence to all sentences. If language were that simple, no-one would need a teacher. You would just learn one single example sentence of every grammar rule and you would be able to simply change the vocabulary. Wishful thinking!

I am a "use of English" teacher, not of complicated grammar, I make no pretence about that.

When we convert a sentence from, for example, "A car with four doors" where the number (four) and one noun (doors) come after the main noun (car), we change "four doors" to "four-door".

I have a car with four doors.
I have a four-door car.
We cannot convert this one in the same way as the next example.

I will have a holiday lasting seven weeks.
I will have a seven-week holiday.
I will have seven weeks' holiday.

 

[emsr2d2]

When choosing the right variant, please remember that I will be using your explanation not only for myself but also for my pupils who are preparing for the examination test.

"My pupils"? Are you an English teacher? If so, you need to amend your member profile.

 

[Chicken Sandwich]

***** NOT A TEACHER *****

The problem is that the indefinite article could be referred to the head noun of the phrase (holiday) but, of course, not to the noun weeks.

Why not?

What is the significant difference between I've got a week's holiday starting on Monday and Julia has got three weeks' holiday? In the first sentence 'week' is singular so you can use "a" but in the second sentence 'weeks' is plural so "a" is no longer possible.

The way I look at it:

I had a four-week holiday in the US.

four-week is an adjectives which modifies holiday. You could leave out four-week and still have a correct sentence: I had a holiday in the US.

I had four weeks' holiday in the US.

Leaving out four weeks' results in an incorrect sentence as four weeks' is not an adjectives which modifes holiday. four modifies weeks. This sentence is the same as I had four weeks of holiday in the US.
You wouldn't say I had a four weeks of holiday in the US which may explain why I had a four weeks' holiday in the US is incorrect.

 

[sergeyrais]

"My pupils"? Are you an English teacher? If so, you need to amend your member profile.

Actually, I am not a teacher, but a tutor having my own practice without working at school. If that makes no difference I shall make the mentioned amendment.

 

[sergeyrais]

Leaving out four weeks' results in an incorrect sentence as four weeks' is not an adjectives which modifes holiday. four modifies weeks.

Sure, "four weeks' is not an adjective" for it is a genitive of measure consisting of a numeral and a noun in plural. But as an attribute it modifies the word holiday. And if this genitive of measure could be considered to have a classifying (descriptive) aspect, then why don't we have a grammatical right to use an indefinite article referring the latter not to the word within this genitive of measure, but to the headword of the phrase which (the headword) is in singular?

As to four, it really modifies weeks (that's why weeks is in plural). But wouldn't you agree that four weeks' is also a modifier?

 

[Chicken Sandwich]

But wouldn't you agree that four weeks' is also a modifier?

No, I don't agree. At the risk of sounding repetetive, I shall present my argument again, though this time slightly differently.

Isn't the idea of a modifier that you can leave it out without making the sentence ungrammatical? Let's see what Wikipedia has to say about this:

In grammar, a modifier is an optional element in phrase structure or clause structure.[SUP][1][/SUP] A modifier is so called because it is said to modify (change the meaning of) another element in the structure, on which it is dependent. Typically the modifier can be removed without affecting the grammar of the sentence.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_modifier)

Let's take this sentence from the Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English:

The fierce dog with a short tail barked loudly.

The underlined words act as modifiers. Leaving them out doesn't affect the grammar of the sentence for The dog barked is a perfectly fine sentence. In other words, fierce, with a short tail and loudly are optional.

Your point is that four weeks' in I had four weeks' holiday in the US acts as a modifier. But what happens if we leave out four weeks'? The omission affects the grammar for I had holiday in the US is wrong. Consequently, four weeks' is not a modifier of holiday and any article that is placed before four weeks' relates to weeks and not to holiday.

 

[Esredux]

Why can't I justify the indefinite article by referring it to the head word (holiday) which is modified by a descriptive attribute (seven days')?
e.g.
I didn't take a seven days' holiday, but I took a ten days' holiday.

Or is there anything wrong with the indefinite article in the basic expression "to take a holiday"?

"ten days'" doesn't seem to be an adjective to apply "A/An+Adj.+N" pattern.
Why not think of it as an example of the Possessive Case - the way it's usually taught in Russia. Consider:

My daughter's teacher is very kind. - "my" clearly refers to "daughter", not "teacher"
My daughters' teacher is very kind. - the number of daughters I have taught by the same kind teacher is beside the point, still "my" as a determiner refers to "daughters", not "teacher".

If you are preparing your pupils for the Russian State Exam or similar, they could benefit from knowing that the Possessive Case can be used to show time duration as in your example:
"ten days' holiday" where "days" do not require other determiner than "ten".

Should I also mention English adjectives do not have plural forms,
as in your '"ten days'"? You can use "ten-day" instead.

_______________________________________
I see no point in stating that I am a teacher, rather the opposite - I've come here to learn more. Unfortunately, no profile option can imply both.

 

[Tdol]

When you use a ten-day holiday, it fits that grammatical model- a holiday + phrase inserted functioning as an adjective (ten-day).

 

[sergeyrais]

Your point is that four weeks' in I had four weeks' holiday in the US acts as a modifier. But what happens if we leave out four weeks'? The omission affects the grammar for I had holiday in the US is wrong. Consequently, four weeks' is not a modifier of holiday and any article that is placed before four weeks' relates to weeks and not to holiday.

Thank you, Chicken Sandwich.

Following your logics I will answer in the following way.


My point is that four weeks' in I had a four weeks' holiday in the US acts as a modifier. What happens if we leave out four weeks'? The omission doesn't affect the grammar for I had a holiday in the US is right. Consequently, four weeks' is a modifier of holiday and the article that is placed before four weeks' relates to holiday and not to weeks .