[Grammar] BESIDES

[wace]

Here's another doubt originating from the somewhat 'liberal' use that some native speakers of English make of their own language.
Any grammar book will say that the preposition BESIDES must be followed by the -ing form..... And sure enough, I have found besides followed by the infinitive......:-( The following are a few examples taken from a random Google search

1) What else can I do with a teaching degree besides teach?
2) What else did you do besides read books?
3) What else could you do besides watch TV?

Much to my relief, I've found just as many with the -ing form. Could I therefore try and 'expound my own theory' as a non-native speaker?
They are both acceptable in common parlance today, the -ing form being technically better and to be preferred in academic writing (?)

Thanks

 

[bhaisahab]

Here's another doubt originating from the somewhat 'liberal' use that some native speakers of English make of their own language.
Any grammar book will say that the preposition BESIDES must be followed by the -ing form..... And sure enough, I have found besides followed by the infinitive......:-( The following are a few examples taken from a random Google search

1) What else can I do with a teaching degree besides teach?
2) What else did you do besides read books?
3) What else could you do besides watch TV?

Much to my relief, I've found just as many with the -ing form. Could I therefore try and 'expound my own theory' as a non-native speaker?
They are both acceptable in common parlance today, the -ing form being technically better and to be preferred in academic writing (?)

Thanks

Your theory is incorrect, all of your three examples are perfectly acceptable.

 

[Raymott]

"Any grammar book will say that the preposition BESIDES must be followed by the -ing form...."

Are you sure? That's a bold claim. How many did you check?
I'd say say that "besides" is followed by the gerund form at the beginning of a sentence.

1) Besides teaching, what else can I do with a teaching degree?
2) Besides reading books, what else did you do ?

 

[wace]

Thank you Raymott. In your first reply, though, - I realize you deal with dozens and dozens of questions every day and cannot possibly enter into details - you forgot to specify whether, besides being perfectly acceptable, the three examples above are exact alternatives to the -ing form at the end of a sentence:
1) what else did you do besides READ/READING?
You may have taken that for granted, but it's always best to clarify. I hate to be a nit-picker but as a teacher - my students are bottomless pits of questions about English - I like to be able to offer any alternatives to a structure being analysed.
As for the number of grammar books I have checked so far, oh.. quite a few, Raymott, but none of them provide one single example containing the infinitive after besides at the end of a sentence. It may have been a 'bold claim' but I hardly ever ask a question without first reading up on the subject in such authoritative reference books as ADVANCED GRAMMAR IN USE (Martin Hewings - Cambridge); A PRACTICAL ENGLISH GRAMMAR (Thomson, Martinet)- Oxford U.P.; ENGLISH GRAMMAR IN USE (R. Murphy- Cambridge).. to name but a few.

 

[Raymott]

Thank you Raymott. In your first reply, though, - I realize you deal with dozens and dozens of questions every day and cannot possibly enter into details - you forgot to specify whether, besides being perfectly acceptable, the three examples above are exact alternatives to the -ing form at the end of a sentence:
On the contrary, I forgot nothing. Are you making my job description even more onerous by mandating that I deal in full with all possible aspects of the question? I decided to add one interesting observation, and that's what I did. Also, remember that I followed on from bhaisahab, and did not repeat his point. So, without me even contributing, it seems that we have the grammar books saying the gerund is correct, and bhai saying your sentences are correct.

You may have taken that for granted, but it's always best to clarify. I hate to be a nit-picker but as a teacher - my students are bottomless pits of questions about English - I like to be able to offer any alternatives to a structure being analysed.
1) what else did you do besides READ/READING?
Thanks for your patience ;-)

I have plenty of patience. Should I infer that you are asking me whether your sentence 1) here means the same with either ending? I think that that has already been decided by "all grammar books" and bhaisahab. My specific contribution dealt with a sentence beginning with "Besides". I have only to add that I don't consider "Besides read books, what else did you do?" wrong. But I prefer "reading".
No, there's no difference in meaning, though there might be regional preferences for one form or the other.

 

[wace]

Oops, I must have missed bhaisahab's post.... Sorry about that!!

No, Raymott, I'm not asking you to 'deal in full with all possible aspects of a question'. You would have to be paid for that, hahahahha.
I was simply suggesting that perhaps a green tick following the option offered is enough to help me understand if a sentence is ok. No other explanation would then be necessary. (By the way, my question was only about the use of besides AT THE END of a sentence: 'What else did you do besides TEACH (correct) / TEACHING (correct) ?' It seems that both are correct, ...end of story).

 

[Raymott]

(By the way, my question was only about the use of besides AT THE END of a sentence: 'What else did you do besides TEACH (correct) / TEACHING (correct) ?' It seems that both are correct, ...end of story).

Sorry, I could have sworn it was about whether to use the gerund or the infinitive after "besides". I answered on that basis.
Never mind though. There's no extra charge.

 

[wace]

Sorry, I could have sworn it was about whether to use the gerund or the infinitive after "besides". I answered on that basis.

In a sssssslightly convoluted way, you certainly did, Raymott. ;-) ... hahah Just kidding.
As I wrote in my previous post, all you had to do was add a tick to both options (in my first post) to mark they were both correct. That would have saved you the bother of answering endless threads. Thanks again for your (and bhaisahab's) patience and.. understanding..

 

[emsr2d2]

In a sssssslightly convoluted way, you certainly did. Raymott. ;-) hahah Just kidding.
As I wrote in my previous post, all you had to do was add a tick to both options (in my first post) to mark they were both correct. That would have saved you the bother of answering endless threads. Thanks again for your (and bhaisahab's) patience and.. understanding..

In my opinion, just putting a tick or a cross next to sentences is not really a sign of a teacher doing a good job. Sometimes, it's all that's required but here, we tend to elaborate. A tick might be enough for you but other learners read these threads and it's good if we can help them understand the answers and the reasons for those answers.

 

[renard]

UsingEnglish.com has a page dedicated to the preposition/adverb use of "besides" at Beside & besides - Articles - UsingEnglish.com. I have several authoritative grammar texts which do not state that besides must be followed by an -ing. I don't see anything convoluted about Raymott's posts.

 

[wace]

A tick might be enough for you but other learners read these threads and it's good if we can help them understand the answers and the reasons for those answers.

Fair enough!... In this particular case, however, there wasn't much explaining to do. It isn't always easy or possible to explain how words work in any given context. Sometimes all we need is for a native speaker to tell us if a particular word is correct or sounds awkward and provide an example of a more natural-sounding alternative.

 

[wace]

UsingEnglish.com has a page dedicated to the preposition/adverb use of "besides" at Beside & besides - Articles - UsingEnglish.com. I have several authoritative grammar texts which do not state that besides must be followed by an -ing. I don't see anything convoluted about Raymott's posts.

1) the page 'dedicated to the preposition BESIDES' wouldn't have answered my question. It says half the things an ordinary grammar text contains on the subject.
2) I'm sure Raymott will be a little more far-sighted and see the innocent irony behind my words (The addition of 'just kidding' to the right of the smiley clearly suggested it was a tongue-in-cheek remark). I'm sorry you felt you had to step in and come to Raymott's defence. I think highly of him as well as any other teacher/moderator who takes the time to contribute with his valuable comments and wouldn't dream of saying anything that might upset any of them.

 

[renard]

I'm sorry you found our responses unhelpful, but other learners may be interested. As teachers, we know that if one person has a question about a certain topic, there are probably several others who do too, but do not speak out. Maybe other learners clicked on this topic because they also wanted clarification on the term "besides". In your original post, you stated that "besides" must be followed by -ing. Since you teach English (and therefore have some authority on the subject), some students may be confused by their own understanding and now require subsequent clarification.

 

[wace]

Your theory is incorrect, all of your three examples are perfectly acceptable.

Why is my theory incorrect? If both the gerund and the infinitive are possible as you pointed out, I don't see how that contrasts with my conclusion..:roll:

 

[5jj]

Why is my theory incorrect? If both the gerund and the infinitive are possible as you pointed out, I don't see how that contrasts with my conclusion..:roll:

Could I therefore try and 'expound my own theory' as a non-native speaker?
They are both acceptable in common parlance today, the -ing form being technically better and to be preferred in academic writing (?)

The part I have underlined is not correct.

 

[wace]

I'm sorry you found our responses unhelpful, I never said any such thing!! In your original post, you stated that "besides" must be followed by -ing True: no grammar text I have checked says anything more about BESIDES, which is why I started this thread in the first place. . Since you teach English (and therefore have some authority on the subject thank you for your trust ;-)), some students may be confused by their own understanding and now require subsequent clarification. Read my conclusion below

To cut a long story short, I will tell my students (if this subject ever comes up in conversation) that at the end of a sentence besides can be followed by either a gerund or an infinitive with no difference whatsoever, whereas at the beginning of a sentence, only the gerund is possible.

 

[wace]

The part I have underlined us not correct.

Point taken :up: